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Thread: [Attn: Devs and PvPers] In Respect to Ability Concerns in PvP

  1. #1
    Plane Touched TheGrump's Avatar
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    Default [Attn: Devs and PvPers] In Respect to Ability Concerns in PvP

    After reading the 1st post of this thread I thought it would be best to reply to it, however after reading my reply I thought it best to just give this a thread of it's own and just reference the other one. I do this because I think the idea is good (I have no idea if it was mentioned in that other thread because I am not going to read 30+ pages of posts, however it if was that's a great thing) and because I don't want a good idea to get lost in 30+ pages of posts.

    I can respect PvP concerns and, as someone who plays a Saboteur and Void Knight, I agree with what that poster in particular is saying: but. The 'but' is important here and it bears repeating over and over again: that post is comparing this part of RIFT to the wrong game, it needs to be compared to Guild Wars.

    It took ArenaNet awhile to understand the best way to balance skills that worked really well in PvE but were too much in PvP was to effectively create two versions of the skills in question, a PvP and a PvE version. This was easy to do in Guild Wars because there was no World PvP, just arena- and warfront-type settings. Fortunately, this would not at all be difficult to do and, since Blizzard was mentioned, it is worth noting that Blizzard has done this with some skills but steadfastly refuses to implement PvP-only/PvE-only functionality to balance some skills.

    Now, I have not looked at PvP souls yet so I do not know if there is anything in there to really mitigate the kind of hell that Saboteurs and Void Knights can unleash. If there is that's great but if there isn't Trion has demonstrated that they can think outside the box while taking the borrowing the best ideas from some of our favourite morpgs and mmorpgs.

    Trion has said that they can afford for their to be poor/bad/awkward soul combinations because the souls themselves are balanced, something that we see in Guild Wars builds. This seems to be very, very true and players of Guild Wars (like myself) are no doubt familiar with how to work the soul tree system to our benefit in creative ways. This means that, as Trion said, balance happens within the soul itself and not the combinations of souls, giving strong support to the idea of having PvP and PvE versions of skills. It is important to note that AoE skills Adhesive Bomb (Saboteur) will likely remain an exception to this or be rebalanced if my idea is implemented due to the inherent nature of World PvP, viz. attacking a character in battle with npc mobs.

    These changes may take awhile to implement but I think they would be worthwhile and help to bring a real sense of balance to the genuine PvP concerns of players while at the same time not altering the great PvE viability that these skills bring. Telara is, after all, one hell of a dangerous world.

    Examples:*

    1. Mighty Leap (Bahmi Racial)
    PvE - Dodges the enemy and leaps at the selected area, shaking off snare and stun effects and other non-magical effects. 3min cooldown
    PvP - Dodges the enemy and leaps at the selected area, shaking off snare and stun effects as well as removing half of a Saboteur's charges on a target. 5min cooldown.

    Notice that the Bahmi racial skill now has a viable PvP component, not to mention some real combat viability in the PvE version as well. This newfound viability would come with a price, functioning much like some PvP trinkets that some of us are familiar with from WoW. Every race would have some kind of combat functionality like this and it makes sense to do so because of the sense of realism and danger in Telara.

    2. Blast Charge (Saboteur)
    PvE - Attaches a Charge onto the enemy, dealing weapon plus 11 to 13 Physical damage per Charge when detonated. Up to 5 Charges can be attached onto the enemy. Energy is refunded if the Rogue is out of combat. Awards 1 Combo Point.
    PvP - Attaches a Charge onto the enemy, dealing weapon plus 11 to 13 Physical damage per Charge when detonated. Up to 5 Charges can be attached onto the enemy. Charges must be detonated within 7 seconds of being placed, otherwise there is a 10% chance that the target will shake off the Charge unless the target is stunned or otherwise immobilised. The chance to shake off the charge increases by another 3-10% for each second after 7 seconds, based on the target's Dexterity. Energy is refunded if the Rogue is out of combat. Awards 1 Combo Point.

    Notice that Blast Charge now has an understandable PvP component that takes into account the realism present in Telara. If you are a Bahmi you have the option to simply shake half the charges immediately or hope that you are dexterous enough to 'remove' the charges while in combat. This also means that classes with naturally high dexterity will be more able to remove these charges but at the same time giving every class a chance to eventually remove the charges in combat. Finally, it does all of this while allowing the Saboteur to, if all things go according to plan, put up all of their charges with some (frantic!) time to spare before charges can be shaken off at all.

    3. Soul Pillage (Void Knight)
    PvE - Siphon off 244 of an enemy's mana, convert this energy into 2 Pacts
    PvP - Siphons off 80.5-244 of an enemy's mana, depending on the current number of Pacts the Void Knight possess

    Notice that Soul Pillage now siphons 33-100% of the PvE version of the skill and is balanced by siphoning mana based on the number of pacts currently on the Void Knight. A starting point of 33% makes the skill still strong but not overly so, the Void Knight must now go into battle prepared or work for his Pacts to leech the mana from the target.

    *All numbers save numbers in PvP and the cooldowns of the Bahmi skill were taking from Telarapedia.
    Last edited by TheGrump; 03-03-2011 at 08:48 PM. Reason: edited for consistent tense; missed text in Mighty Leap

  2. #2
    Plane Touched TheGrump's Avatar
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    It's interesting that there have been 100+ views on this thread but no one has posted. I can't help but wonder if people are more interested in being divisive (forum trolls) or simply don't have anything at all to add. If you have any thoughts on this please respond to the thread, it can only help make RIFT a better game.

  3. #3
    Soulwalker
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    Game is not balance 1v1, some classes hard counter others, this is not Guildwars and there is no need for their to be different ablities/effects for spells going from pve to pvp.

  4. #4
    Shadowlander
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    What your take on Rift Surge??

    This spell alone allows me to beat level 50s as a level 30 riftblade.. I know people are crying about flame spear at low levels but no one seems to care about rift surge at all... Ultimate 1v1 tool +... Sometime in pve Rift surge is completely useless.

  5. #5
    Plane Touched TheGrump's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Martyrofsand View Post
    Game is not balance 1v1, some classes hard counter others, this is not Guildwars and there is no need for their to be different ablities/effects for spells going from pve to pvp.
    Hey, a comment! Excellent!

    I agree completely that some classes 'hard counter' or are the counter class to others. This makes complete sense and is how things should be, it helps to balance things and disable the idea of being some sort of demi-god that can break everything.

    With that said, what people are complaining about in PvP does not at all seem to be balancing PvP on a 1v1 level, but simply that some classes have skills that can obliterate too many other classes. This is an understandable thing to want to fix and isn't at all related to counter classes.

    Finally, the comparison to Guild Wars was meant to be helpful and not be taken completely out of context by someone who seems to not think before posting. The Guild Wars comparison demonstrates an interesting and rather simple way of addressing the problem at hand, saying that this game doesn't need to have a similar mechanic without offering one of your own makes that particular part of your post look like you don't have enough information to participate in the conversation.

  6. #6
    Plane Touched TheGrump's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Radec View Post
    What your take on Rift Surge??

    This spell alone allows me to beat level 50s as a level 30 riftblade.. I know people are crying about flame spear at low levels but no one seems to care about rift surge at all... Ultimate 1v1 tool +... Sometime in pve Rift surge is completely useless.
    I do not know how that ability scales, my Void Knight isn't high enough to use that ability, but it looks rather nasty on Telarapedia. Any ability at all that is used besides an auto-attack will cause someone to take serious amounts of damage all but perpetually. It looks like it may need some rebalancing.

    Then again, following Martyrofsand's though, it may be one of those counter class abilities and should be rebalanced with that in mind.

    A smart PvP player will recognise Void Knight abilities once they have enough experience and keep the Void Knight at a distance of 21-30+ meters in order to nullify their ability to use that damned nasty skill. Unfortunately, people that aren't very hardcore into PvP aren't likely to think of the tactics involved in taking advantage of any given class's natural disadvantages and react accordingly. This may be the case with Void Knights seeming more over-powered then they are, a simple case of a mildly over-powered class seeming to be unstoppable because others aren't thinking like a PvPer.
    Last edited by TheGrump; 03-04-2011 at 02:14 AM. Reason: added missing text

  7. #7
    Rift Chaser RamasSokehur's Avatar
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    Mana Drains and sabo are fine ... MAYBE yes, the blast charge need like 30% dmg reduction but not more (ps.: i'm a mage)

    About mana drains ... rift .. as far i saw, is not make around 1x1 it's a group based game ... so .. those who are crying are just playing alone and cry when they die.

    WIth (709707087896349876387438957395789378839864 x4)+32 combinations of souls, there will be a class/combo that will **** u .... this game is based like that paper rock blablba

    Cleanse once the charges that he will burst u and sabo down.

    alreay said a lot of times, classes here need to be balanced around it self. Mages need buff yes ... maybe some warriors (that crit for 1.3k at lvl 33), sabos need a small dmg redction? yes .. but not something stupid like "90% reduction" about mana drains.

    PS.: wow reduced it because the devs are stupid. that game is balanced around ARENA brackets, speacialy 2x2 ... it is not the case here

    LEAVE THE MANA DRAAAINS ALOOONE kkkkkkkkkkkkk =p and i'm a squishy mage, and i'm not complaining
    No Illegals -> NO BURRITOS!! THINK TWICE BRO!

  8. #8
    Plane Touched snubi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheGrump View Post
    It's interesting that there have been 100+ views on this thread but no one has posted. I can't help but wonder if people are more interested in being divisive (forum trolls) or simply don't have anything at all to add. If you have any thoughts on this please respond to the thread, it can only help make RIFT a better game.
    Funny. You didnt add anything yourself?

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