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Thread: Riftblades and Saboteurs - Common Sense and Logic

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    Thumbs up Riftblades and Saboteurs - Common Sense and Logic

    There have been a lot of QQ and "NERF THIS CLASS" threads about these two classes. However, i find that most of the time, the original poster is simply venting his emotions about them, and not really bringing up any real points of discussion, other than "it is OP".

    Personally, i love the concepts around both of the classes. Riftblade giving the traditional melee warrior class a means of ranged attacks other than the autoshooting bow/throwing weapons. The Saboteur being a class that takes time to build up his attacks, but can unleash that build up all together, or if given time to prepare can set traps, etc.

    I do not believe very many people are inherently against these ideas of playstyle or function.

    I do believe however, that the problem with these two classes currently rests in the lack of weaknesses, or counters that they have. Or if you wish to look at it as the glass is half full, they have too much utility/damage/mobility all combined into one class. There is not enough give/take.

    Lets look at the Saboteur for example. Their charges are instant cast at a 20+ meter range, with an instant finisher.
    - This suggests that they have DPS category covered. (I dont believe their dps is out of range with many other dps classes)
    -They also have the mobility category covered, including their finisher. (Many classes have a combination of instant and casted abilities).
    -They have the unique backloaded damage. (a very interesting and fun mechanic).
    -They also have Utility/Survivability. They are not only strong single target DPS, they have some of the harder hitting AE abilities (charges, bombs, instant abilities, etc)(In their own line they have CC, as well as coupled with other rogue souls their survivability/utility is excellent).

    Now there wouldn't be a problem if you removed one or two of the categories above. The problem is that they have ALL of them. Consistent DPS in any situation, Mobility, Backloaded damage, and utility and surivability. There needs to be a hitch.

    Riftblades are a similar situation. The overall idea of the class is great. However, once again, they are not lacking in any area. They have the sustained ranged DPS, the mobility, utility (CC/snares/debuffs) as well as the survivability one would expect from a warrior class. There just needs to be a little give and take.


    So in conclusion, i am VERY much an advocate of Riftblades and Saboteurs. I would love for them to continue being fun and popular classes that are extremely effective. However, i believe that with a few adjustments to one or more of the main areas (DPS/Mobility/Utility/etc) would go a long way in bringing them back in line with what would be considered a balanced class.

    Suggestions might include a 1 second cast on detonate (similar to Deadeye Shot for marksmen), Increased energy costs on Flamespear to prevent it from becoming a main attack instead of a distance closing ability, a longer CD on Flamesurge to allow players the opportunity to not use abilities during the duration to prevent the damage, and not simply have it instantly reapplied.

    These of course are just ideas to illustrate the general direction i would like to see these classes taken so that they remain FUN, competitive, and balanced.

    What do you think would be reasonable changes to these classes, or what specific aspects might be adjusted?
    Last edited by Lewk; 03-02-2011 at 10:29 AM.

  2. #2
    Rift Disciple badalchemist's Avatar
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    Add the ability for friendly Saboteurs to disarm all charges on a teammate.

  3. #3
    Champion Catskills's Avatar
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    My bards motif outheals sab's charges, and their "damage is op".

    Geez.
    Play to Crush.

  4. #4
    Soulwalker McBobber's Avatar
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    -charge timer reduced from 60s to 5-10s

    -reduce range on detonate

  5. #5
    Champion of Telara
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lewk View Post
    There have been a lot of QQ and "NERF THIS CLASS" threads about these two classes. However, i find that most of the time, the original poster is simply venting his emotions about them, and not really bringing up any real points of discussion, other than "it is OP".

    Personally, i love the concepts around both of the classes. Riftblade giving the traditional melee warrior class a means of ranged attacks other than the autoshooting bow/throwing weapons. The Saboteur being a class that takes time to build up his attacks, but can unleash that build up all together, or if given time to prepare can set traps, etc.

    I do not believe very many people are inherently against these ideas of playstyle or function.

    I do believe however, that the problem with these two classes currently rests in the lack of weaknesses, or counters that they have. Or if you wish to look at it as the glass is half full, they have too much utility/damage/mobility all combined into one class. There is not enough give/take.

    Lets look at the Saboteur for example. Their charges are instant cast at a 20+ meter range, with an instant finisher.
    - This suggests that they have DPS category covered. (I dont believe their dps is out of range with many other dps classes)
    -They also have the mobility category covered, including their finisher. (Many classes have a combination of instant and casted abilities).
    -They have the unique backloaded damage. (a very interesting and fun mechanic).
    -They also have Utility/Survivability. They are not only strong single target DPS, they have some of the harder hitting AE abilities (charges, bombs, instant abilities, etc)(In their own line they have CC, as well as coupled with other rogue souls their survivability/utility is excellent).

    Now there wouldn't be a problem if you removed one or two of the categories above. The problem is that they have ALL of them. Consistent DPS in any situation, Mobility, Backloaded damage, and utility and surivability. There needs to be a hitch.

    Riftblades are a similar situation. The overall idea of the class is great. However, once again, they are not lacking in any area. They have the sustained ranged DPS, the mobility, utility (CC/snares/debuffs) as well as the survivability one would expect from a warrior class. There just needs to be a little give and take.


    So in conclusion, i am VERY much an advocate of Riftblades and Saboteurs. I would love for them to continue being fun and popular classes that are extremely effective. However, i believe that with a few adjustments to one or more of the main areas (DPS/Mobility/Utility/etc) would go a long way in bringing them back in line with what would be considered a balanced class.

    Suggestions might include a 1 second cast on detonate (similar to Deadeye Shot for marksmen), Increased energy costs on Flamespear to prevent it from becoming a main attack instead of a distance closing ability, a longer CD on Flamesurge to allow players the opportunity to not use abilities during the duration to prevent the damage, and not simply have it instantly reapplied.

    These of course are just ideas to illustrate the general direction i would like to see these classes taken so that they remain FUN, competitive, and balanced.

    What do you think would be reasonable changes to these classes, or what specific aspects might be adjusted?
    I remember a time when I read these post before I played and think "WOW this class is way OP!" Then I played the game and pvped a lot on my warrior from 1-40 on both beta/live and sure at first they were a bit annoying but after a few encounters I would destroy them as I would any other class (I played champion and paladin btw) after some trials and errors. I'm not saying I win 100% of the time but they are not as big a threat as everyone who cries about them on the forums make them out to be. Bottom line is instead of just crying about the class after getting rickrolled over and over, take the time to actually think about it and figure out your own ways to counter them.

  6. #6
    Telaran Arandmoor's Avatar
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    I think sabs are looking op right now because they're unique and people don't know how to fight them yet.

    For example: a dom can neatly hamstring a sab with a well timed transmogrify, provided some mouthbreather doesn't break it. Ccing a sab between charges four and five cuts their dps by at least half, and if their target dies, gets dispelled, or gets healed during that time the sab's contribution is reduced even further because our ability to snipe killing blows is what makes us dangerous.

    Losing the sab and finding a new target while your teammates focus down the sab has much the same effect.

    Finally, i'm still learning the classes. Can other ranged dps extend their range beyond 30? Sab base range on their charges is only 20 yards. If you can extend the range on a 30 yard range attack you can range a sab's charges hard and kite him. And i'm assuming you can extend charge range to 30. It might only be 26 tops (need to check).

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by Noctisx View Post
    I remember a time when I read these post before I played and think "WOW this class is way OP!" Then I played the game and pvped a lot on my warrior from 1-40 on both beta/live and sure at first they were a bit annoying but after a few encounters I would destroy them as I would any other class (I played champion and paladin btw) after some trials and errors. I'm not saying I win 100% of the time but they are not as big a threat as everyone who cries about them on the forums make them out to be. Bottom line is instead of just crying about the class after getting rickrolled over and over, take the time to actually think about it and figure out your own ways to counter them.
    That is a valid argument and point. I also agree that MANY players who do the "QQing" also do not understand their own class, much less the class that beat them.

    However, i feel like i am an avid PvPer, and spend the majority of my time PvPing in any MMO i play. I reached max lvl during beta, and had a lot of time to simply PvP. From my own experiences, these were the problems that i was seeing with the two classes, and the core of the QQ from other players (even if they didnt understand what exactly they were QQing about).

    I wouldn't mind hearing some of your strategies as a melee class, as i cant imagine that your class build would be able to survive at all against two classes that can easily out kite you. Granted you have some class specific abilities that would be helpful, you are certainly not every class. And if you could provide me with a logical , well thought out way to counter abilities like Flamesurge, i would be all ears!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Arandmoor View Post
    I think sabs are looking op right now because they're unique and people don't know how to fight them yet.

    For example: a dom can neatly hamstring a sab with a well timed transmogrify, provided some mouthbreather doesn't break it. Ccing a sab between charges four and five cuts their dps by at least half, and if their target dies, gets dispelled, or gets healed during that time the sab's contribution is reduced even further because our ability to snipe killing blows is what makes us dangerous.

    Losing the sab and finding a new target while your teammates focus down the sab has much the same effect.

    Finally, i'm still learning the classes. Can other ranged dps extend their range beyond 30? Sab base range on their charges is only 20 yards. If you can extend the range on a 30 yard range attack you can range a sab's charges hard and kite him. And i'm assuming you can extend charge range to 30. It might only be 26 tops (need to check).
    You simply can not "kite" a sabo and hit from a max range. They have enough utility and snare/cc to negate any efforts to do so.

    Perhaps a reduction in range on saboteur Charges/abilities would be a way in which to bring them into the realm of balanced?

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Catskills View Post
    My bards motif outheals sab's charges, and their "damage is op".

    Geez.
    No healing outheals sab's charges. The problem is when you get hit by a 5 point finisher, another charge, and then a 5 charge detonate. And if you think your motif outheals all of THAT, please let me know what your spec is, because I'm switching. I can't outheal sabo damage with cadencex2, coda of resto +all of my motifs going. In fact, they usually only have to go through two detonates to kill me. (If they don't crit).

    I think sabs are looking op right now because they're unique and people don't know how to fight them yet.
    People don't know how to fight sabo's yet. See guys, the real way to beat a sabo is crowd control him and RUN FOR YOUR LIFE!!! Because the second he gets out of crowd control (which, unless you are a dominator, you can't do damage to them during that period of time) he is going to **** you with those charges he placed earlier.

    Quote Originally Posted by Arandmoor View Post
    Ccing a sab between charges four and five cuts their dps by at least half, and if their target dies, gets dispelled, or gets healed during that time the sab's contribution is reduced even further because our ability to snipe killing blows is what makes us dangerous.
    Who gives a **** what it does to their DPS? It doesn't reduce their DAMAGE at all. Only when they are able to do it. And not everyone has transmogrify.

    Sab is leather wearer who can be LOS'd and who does *0* damage until they can hit detonate. They are easily shut down.
    Yes, good thing there is ALWAYS a mountain I can quickly put between me and a sabo around. And good thing they can't throw their lvl 0 sticky bomb at my feet and catch up to me in a few seconds. And good thing other ranged classes don't need LoS to cast spells on people. Marksman and rangers can shoot through mountains, haha but sabo's can't? Lame...
    Last edited by Kedoren; 03-02-2011 at 11:15 AM.

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    You make the assumption that changes are needed for either class.

    This is a recurring theme in the world at large. Repeat an incorrect observation often enough and people accept it as fact and create flawed proofs and theorems to support the universally accepted 'proof'. This hasn't occurred here yet though the process is well on its way.

    Here is the issue with your argument: You created a flawed set of criteria by which you rate the classes. You ignore flaws for both classes.

    Examples:

    Sab is leather wearer who can be LOS'd and who does *0* damage until they can hit detonate. They are easily shut down.

    I don't know enough about RB to speak with any confidence witht he exception of the fact that their ranged weaponry scales poorly in comparison to some of the abilities of other classes.

    Though I believe that you spent a good amount of time and effort in a good faith effort to address the situation as you see it I believe that your analysis is fundamentally flawed and as such the conclusion that you come to, the crux of your argument, is incorrect.

  11. #11
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    I held off on giving my opinion on the sabotuer, I figured they would get less potent the higher up in levels we went. I'm finding the opposite to be true. I firmly believe that if you are defending saboteurs, then you have an interest in keeping them overpowered. You can make arguements about them, but the only thing your arguements prove is that they are not GOD class. Nobody is saying they are, we're just saying they're obviously more powerful than the rest of the classes.

    Hell, with my bard I tried my third soul as sabotuer, and put 0 points into it and I was killing people faster with blast charge/detonate than I ever had.
    Last edited by Kedoren; 03-02-2011 at 11:18 AM.

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Catskills View Post
    My bards motif outheals sab's charges, and their "damage is op".

    Geez.
    Nerf Bards!

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kedoren View Post
    I held off on giving my opinion on the sabotuer, I figured they would get less potent the higher up in levels we went. I'm finding the opposite to be true. I firmly believe that if you are defending saboteurs, then you have an interest in keeping them overpowered. You can make arguements about them, but the only thing your arguements prove is that they are not GOD class. Nobody is saying they are, we're just saying they're obviously more powerful than the rest of the classes.

    Hell, with I tried my third soul as sabotuer, and put 0 points into it and I was killing people faster with blast charge/detonate than I ever had.
    I have to disagree. I play a Sin and don't intend on going Sab as I dislike ranged classes. I find that Sabs are pretty easy to have as opponents with a little thought and technique. If you play their game they will smash you but I don't see how that is much different than if I play a warrior's game by trying to go toe to toe with them.

    They are a new class with a unique mechanic to them but not overpowered as I see it. I believe that you just need a sound technique to beat them.. just like every other class.

    This is a seriously blown out of proportion issue in my opinion that will result in a gimped, unplayable soul which serves no one's purpose. I guess that is my interest in discussing this point.

  14. #14
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    I'm not against the idea of saboteurs either. I accept that there is a counter to healers, and it is the sabotuer. My problem is right now they are TOO strong.

    The fix might be as simple as this:

    Instead of letting a sabo stack 5 charges, use another finisher for FULL finisher damage, putting one more charge and then blasting for FULL blast charges... if you use your combo points your charges disappear.

    The problem isn't that their one finisher is too strong. The problem is they can use a finisher twice in a row, unlike any other class. I have no problem letting their damage be backloaded, but two finishers almost right in a row? That's a problem for me.

  15. #15
    Plane Walker ShimmerSniper's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kedoren View Post
    I'm not against the idea of saboteurs either. I accept that there is a counter to healers, and it is the sabotuer. My problem is right now they are TOO strong.

    The fix might be as simple as this:

    Instead of letting a sabo stack 5 charges, use another finisher for FULL finisher damage, putting one more charge and then blasting for FULL blast charges... if you use your combo points your charges disappear.

    The problem isn't that their one finisher is too strong. The problem is they can use a finisher twice in a row, unlike any other class. I have no problem letting their damage be backloaded, but two finishers almost right in a row? That's a problem for me.
    Thats one of my biggest suggestions, though not for balance reasons. But for the fact I find it dumb that you can do this and it goes against the whole concept.

    Basically, my idea is whenever you lose your combo charges, you lose your sab charges as well.

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