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Thread: Defiant Ascended and History

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    Shadowlander Sirkhan's Avatar
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    Default Defiant Ascended and History

    So, The Defiants managed to create Ascended on the last day of Telara. Is there any lore as to which period in history the (dead) Ascended were plucked from or are we wide open to pick any time at all ? So in theory we could have two Eth meet who originally lived 1000 years apart ?

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    Ascendant Talila's Avatar
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    For roleplay purposes, I always go by that by far the most (if not all but one) defiant ascended are created in our time. Right as you leave the defiant instance, you're given a quest to hand in the blueprints to the defiant technicians at the (newly discovered) lifeforge - namely because that timeline's world is going to blow up and they don't have time to send more through (As a general thing, the quests are more written for one person than masses of people, which causes these inconsistencies when a lot of ascended has to share the same world, as we do)
    That gives roughly three years where the new defiant ascended army could have been ascended, but as far as I know there's nothing as such that prevents a soul from being a thousand years old - However, I can't really say I've seen any npc's that boast about being from a time long ago. If for example a defiant from 1000 years ago had been ascended, they'd be able to tell us about the two continents that they just fled from - the question then being, why haven't we seen it in the lore before now. So I'd say if you're planning to roleplay, and this is just my personal opinion, try to avoid key areas in history and at best, go with the recent 100-200 years - and be ready for the questions that follow, which people might ask icly. A kelari ascended who lived on the kelari isles before everything went haywire, would probably be asked to tell how it was to live there back then etc.

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    Shadowlander Sirkhan's Avatar
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    Yeah I was looking to create a backstory for a character and thinking about his pre-Ascended life.

    Makes sense to keep it simple. Asha was the first Defiant Ascended and she's from the same generation that fought the Mathosian Civil War.

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    I've done a bit of reading, but there isn't much to go by.

    In the starting area, it's said that they pull a soul from the soul stream. Some of the souls considered for the process were killed in the shade, or in the time of the dragons. So it's possible to pull a soul from any time frame.

    The thing to watch for is time paradox. If you are going to pull from ancient history, that's not a problem, but if you are RP'ing your from the 20 years into the future, I'd say don't make your soul be from our current time - or even slightly before or after - unless you are very good at avoiding time paradoxs. You don't want to accidently prevent yourself from being born in the first place.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Talila View Post
    For roleplay purposes, I always go by that by far the most (if not all but one) defiant ascended are created in our time....A kelari ascended who lived on the kelari isles before everything went haywire, would probably be asked to tell how it was to live there back then etc.
    This idea makes the most sense to me, but I seem to remember reading somewhere--the old lore threads maybe--that Word of God says that all Defiant ascended are from the Terminus timeline?

    I'm also very confused about the Kelari in particular, because from the way NPC's talk, they haven't been in Freemarch very long at all. Do we have an actual canon timeline?

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    Ascendant Talila's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rosenoire View Post
    This idea makes the most sense to me, but I seem to remember reading somewhere--the old lore threads maybe--that Word of God says that all Defiant ascended are from the Terminus timeline?

    I'm also very confused about the Kelari in particular, because from the way NPC's talk, they haven't been in Freemarch very long at all. Do we have an actual canon timeline?
    We do:
    http://forums.riftgame.com/rift-gene...-timeline.html
    Add a year for every year Rift has been live (So that is soon to be two years). The timeline has not been updated since it was posted, and MissDoomcookie has not been on the lore dev team for some time (she's working in another company now on a new game)

    I do not know if they ever confirmed that all defiants are from the future, but it seems highly unrealistic and doesn't make sense - even if it was said perhaps around launch, they do not factor in the time that has passed since - Ascension still occurs through the defiant life-forges (They even have them in tempest bay) so by all means it should be possible for a roleplayer to ascend their character in the time passed since launch.

    The lore we get from the questline, and some of the things that have been said about Defiant ascension since then does not make sense (to me). The quest describes that they only have time (they put an emphasis on that your Resurrection was a bit more late than what they wanted) to have you running as fast as you bloody can to the failsafe time-machine, and the cinematic shows the world blowing up right after you leave - There might have been a handful more, but I can not see how they'd have gotten thousands and thousands of defiant ascended through in time.

    To me, it's always made a lot more sense to assume that the ascended described in the quest-lines (both for defiant and guardian) are "Trions" character - that it is one person, one great hero that we don't know the name of - and then simply assume that all other ascended are, still powerful, but not as powerful and probably not the ones killing dragons every day. By doing so, a lot of stuff makes a lot more sense and we elegantly avoid having 500 characters with the same past/boasting aboit killing greenscale/etc.

    As for the Kelari's, they have not been in Freemarch for a long time no - I think it's somewhere within the last 20 years that they arrived to Freemarch from the Kelari (Now Ember) isles. They fled from there because the spirits that they made pacts with became corrupted and tried to kill them. The Pykari you find on Ember Isle are fallen Kelari. Many many kelari's were killed when they fled, as Akylios at the time was none too keen on letting people sail anywhere.

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    Rift Chaser Raeslyn's Avatar
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    I wish and hope that they can update the Rift timeline soon. I'd also like a timeline for the Age of Dragons and before that as well! I read somewhere in the lore that the Age of Dragons lasted centuries. And we know that Telara lived in peace before that, protected and watched over by the 5 gods and the High Elves, who swore the Covenant to watch over the world for them. I'd love to see a breakdown of certain events in the past in detail. Not vague times and mentiones. And it only gives a few dates too! *sadface* I'd also like a definite date on when the Kelari arrived in Freemarch, but maybe we have one already, I can't remember. I think it's approximately 20 years? Because I think it happened during the Shade Wars, when Regulos disturbed the Ward, which then woke up Akylios. I think we need someone to update the lore to match present day Telara! Not to mention in the world lore section on Rift's home page, there are many instances where it's stuff that doesn't even mention the new SL information. It makes it all the more confusing.

    As a RPer, I love lore, and I love reading the history behind the setting of a game and piecing it together in my mind. But some things just don't make sense in Telara's history. I know there's ways around it, or of making it work...maybe I'm just so used to lore being set out before me on a platter, like in a certain other game? *shrug*

    My Telaran Lore and History Blog, with a side of RP storytelling!=http://ascendedtales.blogspot.ca/201...beginning.html

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    Rift Chaser Eylisia's Avatar
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    As has been stated already, Defiant Ascended are plucked from the Soulstream. As such, there is no rule as to which time your character has come from, assuming that the Soulstream is 'out of time'. As has also been stated, you would probably do well to avoid key historical periods in the timeline unless you are willing to research (and can find) canon lore regarding the events there.

    Having said that, there is nothing wrong with saying your Eth character was from a time when the Eth were very much tribal societies since it's unlikely that a tribal group would settle in one place for too long, especially if they competing with other tribes for resources.

    Regarding the future. The opening timeline ceased to exist the moment you arrive in the past, as the very act of sending the information used to create Ascended back alters that timeline. Each person who has decided to come from the future (even if just a few months or years) has changed the world they knew simply by existing in the past and this is where it gets complicated. I'll do my best to explain however...

    By travelling permenantly into the past, the future you knew no longer exists. This means that the future you know no longer exists. If you prevent your birth, you will not cease to exist, since technically, you don't exist already. An example.

    Annie was born during the Storm Legion events. Her parents were killed and she had a hard life because of it. Because of this, she learned to be quick with a knife, to defend herself and feed herself. She dies at 21, defending herself from an attack. Roll back 21 years to the Storm Legion events and Annie finds herself alive, newly ascended and with all of her previous skills. She learns that she has been brought back to defend against the attacks and does so happily.

    Even though she never meets her parent or infant self, Ascended Annie successfully prevents the death of Annie's parents by helping to save the world. Annie lives a long and happy life with her parents, while Ascended Annie continues to fight for the Defiant.

    This is possible because the moment Ascended Annie found herself alive during the Storm Legion events, her own timeline ceased to exist. With this, it is entirely possible for the two Annni's to co-exist, since Ascended Annie is a timeless being from an era that never happened. If she unwittingly kills infant Annie, Ascended Annie will not cease to exist because again .. she is a timeless being from an era that doesn't exist.

    To quote an expert on time travel: People assume that time is a strict progression of cause to effect, but *actually* from a non-linear, non-subjective viewpoint - it's more like a big ball of wibbly wobbly... time-y wimey... stuff.

    If you are from the future then just remember: Your timeline never happened. You're memories won't change, you won't change. You are no loger part of that timeline, only new instances hold any effect on you.

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    Ascendant Galibier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Talila View Post
    For roleplay purposes, I always go by that by far the most (if not all but one) defiant ascended are created in our time.
    BUT remember we are the only Ascended (player characters) the NPC's we meet are those incredibly rare "natural heros" or Asha the Plane Touched. Since we all go through the same starter story, all Ascended are from the future.
    Far better is it to dare mighty things, to win glorius triumphs, even though checkered by failure... than to rank with those poor spirits who neither enjoy nor suffer much, because they live in a gray twilight that knows not victory nor defeat.

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    Ascendant Talila's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Galibier View Post
    BUT remember we are the only Ascended (player characters) the NPC's we meet are those incredibly rare "natural heros" or Asha the Plane Touched. Since we all go through the same starter story, all Ascended are from the future.
    I don't think we're on the same track here, I am talking about individual characters that people roleplay, and not what we go through game-mechanic wise. And to here, interpretating the lore so that it can at all be used for roleplay purposes - rather than just a justification of a game-mechanic (which often doesn't cut it, in roleplay we can't all have gone through the same, it would close the ability to have different and outstanding characters by a significant amount)

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    Sword of Telara Shibi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Milyssa View Post
    I've done a bit of reading, but there isn't much to go by.

    In the starting area, it's said that they pull a soul from the soul stream. Some of the souls considered for the process were killed in the shade, or in the time of the dragons. So it's possible to pull a soul from any time frame.
    I actually like the defiant story, but I am not as knowledgeable as others so please humour me.

    I don't think at any time I have seen mention that we retain the personal memories, loves lost and lives lived of the other souls. Even for an ascended you die, and come back as yourself but with more. The more isn't as far as I recall defined as another person's life memories.

    As a defiant, before the start area was changed and the whole thing removed... you can stand there after emerging from the machine and seeing technicians experimenting on captured guardians. They place two on pads and extract their "souls" leaving the dead husks behind. There is talk about how they can fit 6 souls into someone.

    The thing to watch for is time paradox.
    No! Paradox is Rift at it's core, if anything it should be encouraged!

    The best argument against a time paradox being possible is "Everything I say here is false".

    If you somehow caused yourself not to be born, then that timeline is altered so you are not born, but you are from a different time line and nothing can remove you from existance.

    We in fact, as Defiants do this, we use the machine and come back through time to stop Regulus. By stopping regulus we have prevented Terminus. By preventing Terminus we WILL never be born in the new timeline we created.

    Yes, our old point of reference dissolved, ceased to be, became an ex-parrot, but our reality is our perception not the entire cosmos. That timeline was extinguished and Terminus never happened, but we still are here, we still have souls that might be in existance in others.

    I think it's a painful roleplay myself, sort of like a poor orphan child raised by nuns who grows up to avenge their parents, but paradox is not wrong. We are paradox by default.

    But, we are no longer in our birth timeline. We are now in a new one where we won't exist as another copy.

    A paradox is possibly stopping us meeting ourselves.
    Last edited by Shibi; 12-29-2012 at 03:30 AM.
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  12. #12
    Plane Walker
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    The Boar Spear tale tells of retaining memories.

    http://www.riftgame.com/en/world/fic...ar-spear-1.php

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    Shadowlander Sirkhan's Avatar
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    Shibi that's an interesting point re the creation of the first Defiant ascended through experimentation on Guardians. I think I'll go with the whole creation of 'new' Defiant ascended in the current timeline, much easier.

    Now about souls and memory, are they race specific i.e. Bahmi souls can only be bound to Bahmi Ascended? We know they aren't gender specific from the Boar Spear story. And obviously a Defiant soul could not be put in a Guardian Ascended by the Vigil but what about the other way round? Or are souls seen as pre-faction.
    Last edited by Sirkhan; 01-03-2013 at 04:16 AM.

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    Ascendant Talila's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sirkhan View Post
    Shibi that's an interesting point re the creation of the first Defiant ascended through experimentation on Guardians. I think I'll go with the whole creation of 'new' Defiant ascended in the current timeline, much easier.

    Now about souls and memory, are they race specific i.e. Bahmi souls can only be bound to Bahmi Ascended? We know they aren't gender specific from the Boar Spear story. And obviously a Defiant soul could not be put in a Guardian Ascended by the Vigil but what about the other way round? Or are souls seen as pre-faction.
    I think it's safe to assume that the soul is bound to the race. We'd have seen it by now, if it was at all possible for a defiant to ressurect as a guardian and vice versa (Spies would be a common problem). All in all I would advice to take stories like the boar spear "lightly" when it comes to roleplay, as roleplayers we sometimes have to go of other ways because otherwise our roleplay would lose meaning - Such as the Ascension process being described as a thing that takes mere minutes, in a roleplay sense that would mean we can have fights that would never end, and conflict RP loses it's point (more than it already has) - in the community on Argent this is solved by putting in some additional circumstances, like for example the need for a ritual to bring an ascended back and a general understanding that death shouldn't be over-used, and people should give a bit of time before ressurecting.

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    Shadowlander Sirkhan's Avatar
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    Bit by bit I'm finding lots of nice little hooks in the lore particularly on the Defiant side.

    Bought a book on Mongol history to read, definitely gone a bit 'Bahmi' (groan)

    Last edited by Sirkhan; 01-03-2013 at 05:52 AM.

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