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Thread: The Defiant are not about Science.

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    Rift Disciple
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    Default The Defiant are not about Science.

    People voice some variation about Defiant equal Science and Guardians equal religion. Science is not the same thing as technology. Science is a rigorous system for determining what is known and how to objectively show if something can be known. All and any tools are technology. Bows and arrows, knives, and armour to the machines used are all technology. The Defiant have and use technology they are technologists.

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    Plane Walker Anakha's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steingrim View Post
    People voice some variation about Defiant equal Science and Guardians equal religion. Science is not the same thing as technology. Science is a rigorous system for determining what is known and how to objectively show if something can be known. All and any tools are technology. Bows and arrows, knives, and armour to the machines used are all technology. The Defiant have and use technology they are technologists.

    tech·nol·o·gy
    –noun
    1.
    the branch of knowledge that deals with the creation and use of technical means and their interrelation with life, society, and the environment, drawing upon such subjects as industrial arts, engineering, applied science, and pure science.
    2.
    the terminology of an art, science, etc.; technical nomenclature.
    3.
    a technological process, invention, method, or the like.
    4.
    the sum of the ways in which social groups provide themselves with the material objects of their civilization.

    While they are not the same they are definitely related, as technology can not advance without science and vice versa.
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    Shadowlander Bramen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Anakha View Post
    tech·nol·o·gy
    –noun
    1.
    the branch of knowledge that deals with the creation and use of technical means and their interrelation with life, society, and the environment, drawing upon such subjects as industrial arts, engineering, applied science, and pure science.
    2.
    the terminology of an art, science, etc.; technical nomenclature.
    3.
    a technological process, invention, method, or the like.
    4.
    the sum of the ways in which social groups provide themselves with the material objects of their civilization.

    While they are not the same they are definitely related, as technology can not advance without science and vice versa.
    Now we are getting into semantics. I would say that the Defiant are more scientific, but don't use science as we define the word. A religious person can advance science and be motivated by religion to study science. Galileo Galilei considered the priesthood before he studied math. He explored the universe because he was curious how God created the heavens. If you believe God is TRUTH, and science seeks the TRUTH; then science becomes the exploration of God. Therefor science is a religious experience for a religious person.
    I dont know the lore fully enough to say that either side is more religious than the other; nor can I say that one is not. However both seem to use technology, and believe in Gods. How else can you be upset at something you dont believe in? Both clearly have technology and presumably obtained it through some form of science.

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    Rift Disciple pakes's Avatar
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    Lore-wise, the defiant abandoned their gods and take matters into their own hands where as the Guardians are the gods' loyal subjects, to make a long story short

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    Rift Disciple Vaporman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Anakha View Post
    tech·nol·o·gy
    technology can not advance without science and vice versa.
    I disagree with that in general. Aristotle advanced science without technology, for example. But in specific, I really disagree, since we are talking about technomagic. In this fictional world, technology could advance by means of magic.

    I see the two sides more as religion vs magic.

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    Quote Originally Posted by pakes View Post
    Lore-wise, the defiant abandoned their gods and take matters into their own hands where as the Guardians are the gods' loyal subjects, to make a long story short
    You're wrong about the Guardians. It's really depressing how many think this way, even after the opening cinematic and the new trailer saying the same thing. The Guardians were not chosen for their faith, but for their might. In other words, the Vigil revived non-believers too. All that mattered were their abilities. Yes, some of the Guardians are religious, and a lot of the NPCs Guardian side are, but you have to remember that in Telara, gods are a real thing! There is no doubting they exist.

    To me, the main point of division is the machines. Defiants love them, Guardians hate them.

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    Soulwalker
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    It's interesting in our modern culture that science and religion seem to be at odds with one another. Talking with my grandparents even though they were scientists they never saw an issue with what they learned / did with science and their faith. They were able to balance both in their lives.

    Hundreds of years ago it was monks, priests and other clergy that were leading scientists.

    Terry Pratchett's Monstrous Regiment has a great quote from the Dutches Annagovia. The people treated her as a god and prayed to her. Her response: " All those prayers, all those entreaties...to me! Too many hands clasped that could more gainfully answer your prayers by effort and resolve."

    In another Pratchett book, one of the priests has a religious crisis "is the god silent or is there no one listening".

    It's less than science versus religion as those that look within for the source of their inspiration and do what they must to change the world and those that take inspiration from outside themselves and gain their power from working for an outside influence.

    The Defiant are taking matters into their own hands to fix the problems of the world no matter the consequences. Even if those consequences cause other or greater problems.

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    Shadowlander Bramen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vaporman View Post
    Aristotle advanced science without technology, for example. But in specific, I really disagree, since we are talking about technomagic. In this fictional world, technology could advance by means of magic.

    I see the two sides more as religion vs magic.
    Aristotle had technology it was just primitive. He also believed in an Orical at Delphi and Zeus was king of the Gods. IMHO its more important that Aristotle advanced science without science itself. Meaning that he advanced science without the use of the scientific method; the rigorous elimination of variables through observation and testing.

    Your other point about "technomagic" is very interesting. Technology normally advances because of a need that society must meet. The lever and pully only come about because of a need to lift heavy objects. If a heavy object could be lifted through magic you wouldn't waste your brain power on developing a lever, you would just wait for a magic user to lift the object for you. Now I know what you are thinking, "You would make a lever if there were no magic users around." That's a fair point, however I don't think its valid because you don't see people inventing new ways to transport heavy objects today if one is not around, they will simply wait until the next dump truck is available. Likewise one would wait for the next available magic user to lift the object and therefor technology would not advance.

    One could say that magic and technology are exclusive. Its more of a lore problem to have technology develop with magic than to have religion and technology exist. Something to ponder...

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    Rift Disciple Deathwithouttheglory's Avatar
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    Technology is magic to the ignorant. What do you think a native, deep in the Amazon, would call my cell phone? It's magic to him/her. Even if I explained it, he/she would still think it's magic. Electrical signals, made up of the same particles as lightning, are used to transmit my voice thousands of miles around the world.

    Technology and magic are not mutually exclusive either. You assume that technology wouldn't come about because magic already existed. If one is easier than the other then they could exist side-by-side. You may be able to lift objects with magic but not everyone is a mage. Some people may prefer to do more work but can't use magic. Voila, simple machines are born. Also, swords and hammers are pieces of technology. Yet no one has an issue if they are used in a game alongside magic.
    Last edited by Deathwithouttheglory; 01-31-2011 at 03:12 AM.
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    Soulwalker
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    Any sufficiently advanced magic is indistinguishable from technology.

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    Telaran Nephalym's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Deakon View Post
    Any sufficiently advanced magic is indistinguishable from technology.
    Haha good one. I see what you did there ;-)

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    Soulwalker Nirkana's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nephalym View Post
    Haha good one. I see what you did there ;-)
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    Rift Disciple Berethos's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by chivere View Post
    You're wrong about the Guardians. It's really depressing how many think this way, even after the opening cinematic and the new trailer saying the same thing. The Guardians were not chosen for their faith, but for their might. In other words, the Vigil revived non-believers too. All that mattered were their abilities. Yes, some of the Guardians are religious, and a lot of the NPCs Guardian side are, but you have to remember that in Telara, gods are a real thing! There is no doubting they exist.

    To me, the main point of division is the machines. Defiants love them, Guardians hate them.
    Welllll....technically they were chosen for their faith. It's their *virtue* that was not the qualifying factor. The three races as a whole have stayed faithful to worshiping the gods, but seeing as they aren't exactly the goody-goody type of deities, it's more akin to someone like Achilles or Odysseus earning the favor of a particular Greek god or goddess.

    They believe that the gods of the Vigil are right and should be followed, but they come from all backgrounds, from hero to murderer, and I doubt there's any pious saints among them.

    This is all based on the NPC reactions I've seen on both sides (there are NPCs in Freemarch that talk about originally believing the Vigil would help them, but when they were ignored and instead helped by the Defiants they decide to forge their own destiny instead of relying on divine intervention). The latest CGI movie kinda confuses things where the Guardian says he wasn't chosen for his faith, which is ultimately different than virtue...which is what Cyril's voice over says in the Guardian intro.

    I guess another way of looking at it is the Guardian Ascended don't necessarily have to be the most faithful, pious, Vigil-worshiping individuals. They believe the Vigil is in the right, whether they actively worship them or not, and that is enough. Some may have very loose faith (till they are Ascended at least...good way to gain loyalty, bring them back from the dead and make them powerful), but in my opinion it's still faith.
    Last edited by Berethos; 02-07-2011 at 11:48 PM.

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    Telaran
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    Quote Originally Posted by Berethos View Post
    Welllll....technically they were chosen for their faith.
    No, they were chosen for their might. Their faith just aligns them with the Guardians. To believe in the will of the Gods is a qualifying factor, sure. But you may as well say that they must also be dead. Their prowess is the determining factor.

    Regardless, the Defiants as a whole are about advancing science and technology. While their 'science' may not have reached the laws that we've come to today, do remember that 'science' has been around for many years and was not defined as such hundreds of years ago. The Defiant Ascended may not be so heavy-handed in this process, but other key players such as Orphiel are definitely involved in scientific progress.

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    Quote Originally Posted by pakes View Post
    Lore-wise, the defiant abandoned their gods and take matters into their own hands where as the Guardians are the gods' loyal subjects, to make a long story short
    not exactly - the defiant (or better, their leader Orphiel) got tricked in repairing ancient eth technology by King Aedraxis.
    What Orphiel didnt know (we suppose, it isnt stated clearly nowhere in lore) is that the machines recovered werent from the "straight" eth but were those modified by the infiltrated Endles Court cultists/scientists that started the Eth empire fall and Aedraxis used them to destroy the Wards.
    Guardians didnt check if defiants actually wanted to help the endless court, they just did see the results so a witch hunt against defiants started with the old "kill em all, burn their homes" massacres.
    Defiants obviously didnt stand still and started revenging their deaths with their own massacres..
    the guardian-defiants conflict is born by this more than by religious matters (and obviously the fact that both sides are heavily infiltrated by endless court plants didnt help matters...)
    Last edited by Nix-zero; 02-08-2011 at 02:02 AM.

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