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Thread: What is lore explanation for factionless PvP?

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    Rift Disciple Anvilus's Avatar
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    Default What is lore explanation for factionless PvP?

    Well I did ask this question in one of my topics before, but didn't get a clear answer so I'll post it here.

    As Daglar said a few weeks ago, when ''enhanced matchmaking'' comes, it'll completely disregard your faction and just put you with random people of your rating on one of the sides (Blue or Red)

    Lorewise, what's the explanation for this? Especially in battles like Port Scion and Codex?
    Factions are still different, with different philosophies and views etc.

    I know this was mostly done due to faction imbalance, and player skill imbalance, but what's the lore explanation for this?

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    Ascendant Fragasm's Avatar
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    There is none.
    The only way that someone from Cluster 2 is actually as bad as you all say is if they started playing this game in 2.3 (Free to Play launch).

    Proud officer and Mage class lead of <Zombies>

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    Rift Disciple Anvilus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fragasm View Post
    There is none.
    So does Daglar care about lore at all then? We must have lore explanation for changes like this, otherwise it makes the game pointless. .

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    Ascendant Fragasm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Anvilus View Post
    So does Daglar care about lore at all then? We must have lore explanation for changes like this, otherwise it makes the game pointless. .
    It does make the game pointless. I like to follow lore, and I'm still trying to understand this. We've had lore for everything else in this game, not sure why we're getting nothing on this.


    Here's my best attempt:

    - We already have the mercenary system. The Guardians and Defiant are more or less focused on peace, dealing with the planes. With the arrival in Brevane, the Defiant discovered Empyreal Sourcestone, which is not only more efficient and more stable, but the Vigil permit it, unlike the regular Sourcestone found in Mathosia. With the Defiant conversion to Empyreal magitech, the Guardians are beginning to find common ground with them. The war has ended, more or less, which we saw right before Storm Legion came out. The war still rages politically within the walls of Sanctum and Meridian, but we ascended have all banded together to make the Empyreal Alliance and fight in the Planar War. Battles will still break out as the alliance is not steady, and it may turn into full blown conflicts. But is it truely Guardian versus Defiant? Is it idea versus idea? Or were the sides predetermined? We chose long ago who we were (Defiants do in the future, Guardians did it 20 years ago at the end of the Mathosian Civil War). Do we still believe what we chose? Or has those bold faction lines, dissolved? Are they still quite as defined, or are they beginning to slip into each other, with it becoming more of a case by case thing?

    Use this however you like, so far I seem to be the only one trying to explain this lore-wise.
    The only way that someone from Cluster 2 is actually as bad as you all say is if they started playing this game in 2.3 (Free to Play launch).

    Proud officer and Mage class lead of <Zombies>

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fragasm View Post
    - We already have the mercenary system. The Guardians and Defiant are more or less focused on peace, dealing with the planes. With the arrival in Brevane, the Defiant discovered Empyreal Sourcestone, which is not only more efficient and more stable, but the Vigil permit it, unlike the regular Sourcestone found in Mathosia. With the Defiant conversion to Empyreal magitech, the Guardians are beginning to find common ground with them. The war has ended, more or less, which we saw right before Storm Legion came out. The war still rages politically within the walls of Sanctum and Meridian, but we ascended have all banded together to make the Empyreal Alliance and fight in the Planar War. Battles will still break out as the alliance is not steady, and it may turn into full blown conflicts. But is it truely Guardian versus Defiant? Is it idea versus idea? Or were the sides predetermined? We chose long ago who we were (Defiants do in the future, Guardians did it 20 years ago at the end of the Mathosian Civil War). Do we still believe what we chose? Or has those bold faction lines, dissolved? Are they still quite as defined, or are they beginning to slip into each other, with it becoming more of a case by case thing?
    I do personally enjoy lore quite a bit(though not at the cost of enjoyment) and i must say that's actually well written and I accept it as valid reasoning +1

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    Ascendant Fragasm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by heartoftheforce View Post
    I do personally enjoy lore quite a bit(though not at the cost of enjoyment) and i must say that's actually well written and I accept it as valid reasoning +1
    If I don't understand what is going on, and when, I get frustrated. So I spend a lot of time doing things like this. Thanks!
    The only way that someone from Cluster 2 is actually as bad as you all say is if they started playing this game in 2.3 (Free to Play launch).

    Proud officer and Mage class lead of <Zombies>

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    Rift Disciple Anvilus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fragasm View Post
    If I don't understand what is going on, and when, I get frustrated. So I spend a lot of time doing things like this. Thanks!
    Nice job on explaining! Well written!

    I also hate when I do something and there is no background/lore to it. It makes the game utterly pointless and meaningless. Rift always lacked the ability to explain it's wonderful lore/background to it's full extent, especially pre-SL.
    But devs were doing a good job post-SL lorewise, they even made special dialogues during Ceremony of Attunement if you switched factions! And story quests were much more engaging and interesting.

    But it's things like this that make me think. Thanks for your explanation!

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    Ascendant Maeloda's Avatar
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    Fragasm that's exactly it. The Empyreal Alliance (Lv 50-60 questing is the establishment of it, and 2.3 onward story is the story of it) between Guardians, Defiants, the Lycini, Torvan Hunters, Dusken Caretakers, Pelladane, Eternal City kingdom, Telaran fae, and Ashoran ogres, means that any issues between the factions and individual Ascended are fought out in case-by-case situations. There's too much hanging on a united Telara for there to be otherwise, at least for now.

    For the most part, Lv 1-50 era Warfronts are generally 'frozen in time' like the PvE zones. For Karthan Ridge, it's a strategic point between both factions, but they're not at the point of all-out-war aside from it.
    We can assume someone won Black Garden, but they're not going to make canon who won the Fang of Regulos (to purify or study it). I like to think Guardians, since it's their land.
    We can assume someone won the Codex, but again they won't make anything canon. I like to think Defiants, since it's their land.
    For Whitefall, I like to think that the Icewatch put a stop to the conflict and the sides agreed to hand off the sourcestone to them.
    For Hammerknell, I like to think the Dwarves, while moving in, put a stop to the conflict as well :P
    For Port Scion, I like to think that the Endless and valuables are cleared out and the city is still under occasional skirmish but is often a "No Man's Land" that has to undergo a lot of purification before anyone dares move back in to settle.

    All of this is headcanon though, and you can just as easily imagine all Warfronts as on-again-off-again points of conflict. That doesn't sound very logical, but it's a video game so whatever.


    @Anvilus - Ceremony of Attunement was, I think, in 1.5, which was several patches before Storm Legion came out. Storm Legion Chronicles are A Hero Rises, Queen's Gambit, and Infernal Dawn: Laethys. (with a 4th one coming up)


    While Rift may have launched with a pretty strong PvP story to go along with the PvE, the gradual transition away from two-faction systems (even if that will always exist in the game design foundations) means that the PvP-lore will always be in shaky ground from now on.

    Trion can decide to surprise me and change that, making 3.0 include a very strong lore case for whatever PvP they want to sell to us, but I don't think they consider that essential to the game.

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    Ascendant Maeloda's Avatar
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    Oh I should clarify.
    The faction change dialogue in Ceremony of Attunement was added more recently, due to the F2P change and allowing faction change.

    And yeah, it obviously takes place right after doing as much as you want of the Lv 1-50 questing and dungeons. It just didn't exist in the game until post-Hammerknell, but was designed to flow well for new players once they hit Lv 50.

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    Ascendant Fragasm's Avatar
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    I don't think there is such things as "their land."

    As we saw with the Guardian Invasions or Defiant Invasions in the Mathosian zones. The Guardians traveled in a group from their homes in Hammerknell and Mathosia (was quite large, from Stillmoor to Port Scion but withdrew and fell apart after Mathosian Civil War) and made the Sanctum in Silverwood, which was High Elf territory.

    The Kelari abandoned the Ember Isles after Akylios drowned it, and they landed on the coasts of Freemarch, right outside of Meridian. The Eth and Bahmi attacked and captured Meridian and made it their home bases.

    But there's no real such thing as "their zones" other than for gameplay. Not every person in Freemarch was Defiant, and Silverwood was not completely Elven. These regions had mainly Guardian swayed or Defiant swayed populations, but there were pockets of resistance.

    Defiants could easily have won the Black Garden and Guardians probably could've gotten the Codex. The Icewatch probably didn't do anything because they actually sided with the Guardians (northern zones were more Guardian, southern zones were Defiant).


    Pardon my rambling on.
    Last edited by Fragasm; 10-12-2013 at 05:02 PM.
    The only way that someone from Cluster 2 is actually as bad as you all say is if they started playing this game in 2.3 (Free to Play launch).

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  11. #11
    Rift Disciple Anvilus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maeloda View Post
    Oh I should clarify.
    The faction change dialogue in Ceremony of Attunement was added more recently, due to the F2P change and allowing faction change.

    And yeah, it obviously takes place right after doing as much as you want of the Lv 1-50 questing and dungeons. It just didn't exist in the game until post-Hammerknell, but was designed to flow well for new players once they hit Lv 50.
    Yeah that's what I meant, that dialogue was added with F2P and faction change, and was nicely done. So that means they care about lore and explaining things.

    Also regarding Warfronts, Daglar said something along the lines of that they won't redesign or restructure the warfronts, so it'll be the same story for them, GvD battles, at least lore-wise. So I agree, they are ''frozen in time'' still.
    But this upcoming change really made me wonder about its background.

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    Ascendant Maeloda's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fragasm View Post
    I don't think there is such things as "their land."
    As we saw with the Guardian Invasions or Defiant Invasions in the Mathosian zones. The Guardians traveled in a group from their homes in Hammerknell and Mathosia (was quite large, from Stillmoor to Port Scion but withdrew and fell apart after Mathosian Civil War) and made the Sanctum in Silverwood, which was High Elf territory.
    The Kelari abandoned the Ember Isles after Akylios drowned it, and they landed on the coasts of Freemarch, right outside of Meridian. The Eth and Bahmi attacked and captured Meridian and made it their home bases.
    But there's no real such thing as "their zones" other than for gameplay. Not every person in Freemarch was Defiant, and Silverwood was not completely Elven. These regions had mainly Guardian swayed or Defiant swayed populations, but there were pockets of resistance.
    Defiants could easily have won the Black Garden and Guardians probably could've gotten the Codex. The Icewatch probably didn't do anything because they actually sided with the Guardians (northern zones were more Guardian, southern zones were Defiant).
    I think you totally misunderstand what I mean by "their land".

    By "their", I mean "their story". So yes, gameplay. In Guardian leveling zones, they at least almost always win out in the end. In Defiant zones, the same. Things may go WRONG, but the ultimate victory appears to be for the represented faction.

    It doesn't do well to have it go in Black Garden that.. "Oh, we had the Fang of Regulos and almost every local is on our side now, but the Defiants took it anyway and you'll never, ever, be able to get it back. Go Guardian Ascended! " *sounds Guardian trumpet*

    Or in Codex.. "Oh, we were GOING to study the Codex, but the Guardians took it, and even though we have the town and mine on our side, and increasing Defiant presence here, there's just no way we can take the Codex back. Go Defiant Ascended! " *sounds Defiant trumpet*
    That's kind of a crappy hero story.

    Is there a canon? Absolutely not. It's PVP!!! So I hope you didn't gloss over my 'I like to think' and 'headcanon' words regarding this.
    Last edited by Maeloda; 10-12-2013 at 05:16 PM.

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    Ascendant Fragasm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maeloda View Post
    I think you totally misunderstand what I mean by "their land".

    By "their", I mean "their story". So yes, gameplay. In Guardian leveling zones, they at least almost always win out in the end. In Defiant zones, the same. Things may go WRONG, but the ultimate victory appears to be for the represented faction. It doesn't do well to have it go in Black Garden that.. "Oh, we had the Fang of Regulos, but the Defiants took it and you'll never be able to get it back. Go Guardian Ascended! "
    Or in Codex.. "Oh, we were GOING to study the Codex, but the Guardians took it, and even though we have the town and mine on our side, and increasing Defiant presence here, there's just no way we can take the Codex back. Go Defiant Ascended! "
    That's kind of a crappy hero story.

    Is there a canon? Absolutely not. It's PVP!!! So I hope you didn't gloss over my 'I like to think' and 'headcanon' words regarding this.
    Yeah that makes sense.
    The only way that someone from Cluster 2 is actually as bad as you all say is if they started playing this game in 2.3 (Free to Play launch).

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    Ascendant Maeloda's Avatar
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    When it comes to Whitefall and Hammerknell, I just shrug and go whatever. I made up my headcanon but in the end, both factions probably lost and won in relatively equal amounts, for their respective goals.

    And for Port Scion, the eventual outcome is probably more that the Endless lost, and Ascended ultimately won. lol, just like the PvE story with this bit :P

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    Ascendant Fragasm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maeloda View Post
    When it comes to Whitefall and Hammerknell, I just shrug and go whatever. I made up my headcanon but in the end, both factions probably lost and won in relatively equal amounts, for their respective goals.

    And for Port Scion, the eventual outcome is probably more that the Endless lost, and Ascended ultimately won. lol, just like the PvE story with this bit :P
    Library of the Runemasters happens probably right after we kill Akylios and clear Hammerknell out. The Defiants come back to do research as the Dwarves return to re-colonize their lost fortress, and a fight breaks out.

    Whitefall is just weird.
    The only way that someone from Cluster 2 is actually as bad as you all say is if they started playing this game in 2.3 (Free to Play launch).

    Proud officer and Mage class lead of <Zombies>

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