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Thread: Arguments against the Guardian

  1. #1
    Plane Touched Zelurk's Avatar
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    Default Arguments against the Guardian

    I'm a big time defiant, and a avid debater in those faction v faction pro con discussions that sometimes consumes the lv1-29 and guild chats. My three main arguments against the guardians are:

    1. The guardians tried, the guardians failed, nuff said.

    2. The vigil, while i do not debate their existence or their disposition of trying to make Telara a better place for non-planar beings, they lack the foresight, mercy and empathy that would be required to create the utopia they envision.

    3. The one NPC in the game that best represents the Guardian as a faction, in my persional, biased, and disputable opinion, is Fredrick Kain (better known to guardians as simply 'Kain' and Defiants as 'Kain the Desolate' (or sergeant Fredrick (Terminus)))

    I would like to know any informed counter-arguements so that, in future discussions, i can counter them. Keep in mind that 2 and 3, while not exactly uninformed, are not entirely complete. I have never tried, and never intend, to level a guardian past level fifteen.

  2. #2
    Ascendant Maeloda's Avatar
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    Not gonna get deep into it tonight, but quick responses.

    NOTE: I am regularly Defiant and support them more. I just also like the Guardians and see their useful role. I am going off of any and all the 1.0-2.3 quest and instance content I've done, but I may not remember parts.

    1. The Guardians failed because seemingly in the original timeline, they were too focused on protecting their more secure lands (Silverwood, Moonshade, Gloamwood, and the taken-over Freemarch) than expand forth.
    I don't consider this a weakness in itself, because these zones in fact are the most 'pure' in the game, or at least they would be after a short time and Guardian effort.

    The fact is, Aedraxis would not have even accomplished the Shade (a Death Rift so massive that it affects the continent), if it wasn't for Orphiel. He might have been able to tamper with Death, but it would have more likely to be detected and exposed in time. Frankly, without the 'Defiants', the world wouldn't even be dealing with the effects of the Shade, and could be strengthened enough to fight back against other planar plots. Maybe Mathosia would have stood, or Akylios' prison not weakened, etc.

    You could say that the Defiants saw the Guardians failed, but my response is that they're only filled with arrogance about their role as 'saviors' because they saw just one future. There's a world where Maelforge rules all, I guess the Guardians and Defiants both suck there, right??

    The problem is that we're dealing with hypothetical situations. On both ends. Terminus SEEMS to be the future, but we have NO proof that it is our specific future, instead of just one possibility in the quantum web.
    Defiants COULD have caused this whole recent mess, but we don't know whether that's fair to lay the blame, considering what we've now learned of Crucia and Regulos' (and more) plans. Even if the Defiants were not related to the mess in Stillmoor, we know by now that there's entire continents of enemies that could just arrive an roflstomp us.

    So that's the problem. The good part is that the truth seems to be that while most of the world has fallen or been tainted... the conflict itself (and later on, the simple differences) between the Guardians and Defiants may be what is SAVING the world. The Defiants challenge the Guardians to expand their considerable forces beyond their safe zone (in more ways than one). The Guardians challenge the Defiants to figure out solutions that work not just for themselves, but for the various neutral factions of Telara that they meet (repelling the chance of another failed Eth Empire, or secluded Kelari Isles).

    The result is that we now have a Mathosia that is mostly secure, and a Brevane+Dusken that is on its way there, timeline wise.


    2. You can say exactly the same of Ethian civilization, and it's proven in their history. Even Kelari civilization that seemed to settle into something fine, was entirely overturned just from the events of the Shade (waves crashing and Wanton roflstomping).

    Basically, disasters happen and every single faction/entity that claims the high ground on it, has actually failed in the past. The Vigil's correction to the Infinity Gate wrecking the world, is basically banning anything but the most necessary tech (and later, sourcestone consuming tech). That's also a mistake. The problem here is that there is no way of failing bigger than the Vigil did, because they were major gods. The SAME STUFF happened to mortal civilizations, but we don't compare them the same way, because it's not world spanning.


    3. "The one NPC in the game that best represents the Defiants as a faction is Orphiel Fairwind."

    You know, the one who overtly helped to break the Ward because:
    -he wanted to see what it'd do
    -he wants to upstage the Vigil because *pout*

    What, you annoyed that Kain wanted to do the same? At least he has the (still lame) excuse of being Regulos corrupted. But Orphiel? "lalalaala WARD SUCKS, I want power!" Even the Mathosian king called him narcissistic.

    One has Kain, the other has Orphiel (and believe me, he's likely to become a raid boss).
    One has Hylas, the other has Uriel.

    The difference here, and why I have to actually agree with your 3rd point, is that Defiants DEAL WITH IT (corruption).
    Orphiel seems to get shut in a tower most of the time so he doesn't poke the Ward anymore. Kain? Guess he was screwed.
    Uriel actually gets helped through her corruption by Kira and the Ascended, and recovers. Hylas? Well, he died.

    Guardians wait too late to deal with their problems. Even their covert groups prefer to avoid self reflection onto the Guardians. But Defiants? Ha, the Unseen and Faceless Man will cut corruption out ASAP. It makes them more heartless towards the common person, but it also means that they survive better.


    This wasn't a short post at all...

    I guess what I mean is that yes, those are arguments against the Guardians, and I'll be happy to post my own Top 3 in response tomorrow or later, because those definitely exist .

  3. #3
    Ascendant Maeloda's Avatar
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    Oh and maybe some Guardian info you missed (I leveled 1-50 but not Ember Isle or SL).

    -Only until recently have the Guardian races shown that they are outright faulty as well (Shade, Hammerknell runes, Hylas). Until these three events, the Vigil would have had nearly full confidence that their chosen races and view of the world were the right ones. Now, I'd have to say, they're mistaken. We'll see if we actually get to meet Vigil later on, and if they're as focused in their vision as before.

    -Kain was detected of being on the way to evil in Iron Pine Peak, and the Guardians around him suspected this and worked against him. In Stillmoor, he massacres those trying to help him.
    So what, is he really Guardian? IMO as soon as he touched the Shards of Regulos, he was on his way to being a member of the Endless Court. Everyone else? They were fine, and wanted to protect the world and were just as capable as Defiants. Death power corrupts, and quickly. Uriel only barely survived because she was in a power structure that constantly second-looks itself.

    And that's really the Guardians' problem - they think their members can do no wrong until it's right in front of their face. It means their heroes are the biggest ones of the world, but their failures are that much more humiliating.

    -Most of the overt content of the Lv 1-50 story is about the more recent failures of Guardian races, I fully admit. However, *almost everything beyond 20 years ago* that was 'bad news', was because of Defiant races' arrogance themselves. High Elven schism just because the elves didn't want others to do living sacrifices (oh yes, I do think that's in the lore, until Kelari took up more peaceful relations with spirits). Eth that enslaved planar species and consumed the material that PROTECTED the world (so you could say all the current problems are their doing, especially the rifts). Bahmi... well honestly, they're cool. Bahmi and Dwarves, as races, have the least reason to hate each other faction-wise.

    So basically, you can call Guardians 'old world thinking' that keeps things intact, but is being constantly challenged in the new age, and the Defiants 'new world thinking' that constantly puts the world in danger, but has the key to saving the world.

    You can say Guardians are 'worse', but without them, I very much believe Meridian would have been overrun long ago, especially with the Endless and Abyssal constantly plotting to do so. It's just another detail that the first ones to otherwise overrun Meridian would have been the Guardians :P


    If there wasn't Ascended coming to enrich the Defiants, for the most part, you'd see Defiants as the enemy. Up til the end, where they're extracting souls from living humans in order to 'save' Telara. I'd be those pissed off Guardians too, tbh.
    Last edited by Maeloda; 08-17-2013 at 10:12 PM.

  4. #4
    Plane Touched Zelurk's Avatar
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    Good post, exactly the sort of awnsers i was looking for. I don't have time to fabricate a set of counter arguements at this time, but i'll try and get back to it later.

    One point i would like to add, is that the shade king was a well loved figure for most of the civil war, and Orphial, being lets face it a nerd, would have been the last to learn socially that the king went evil. To him, the rift project, if i call it thus, was purely a academic exercise, a way to learn more about the natural world such to help protect against failures. It is possible that these vary experiments that lead to the ward being sundered were meant to reinforce the ward in Orphial's mind, and were sabotaged, and it is extremely likely that the data collected from them lead to the creation of engineered wardstones. Also, it is highly implied in guardian tutorial that lesser defiants were manipulated, similer to Crucian methods. Many defiants in the tutorial have a death quote along the lines of 'what have i done?!' and such.

    I would also like to add that my opinion the best representative of the Defiant as a faction is Sylver. He has overcome a rather hard past, to become a tactician of the highest order. He isn't exactly fully respectable, but everyone admits his brilliance. He also personifies the reckless streak and sometimes a shortsightedness that the defiants as a whole have, but also seeks to use his inventions to make Telara a better place.

    The Kelari, rather then fighting a incredibly bloody war, gave up everything they knew to live in peace. They are focused first and foremost on their own people, but i think of all the Telaran civilizations, they were the best until the disaster of Ember Isle forced them to evacuate. The ancient Eth, while far from perfect, kept their borders well defended and otherwise were one of the top three 'utopian' civilizations in Telaran history. They even granted the Bahmi a entire homeland when they emerged from the first Shade war as homeless. While they have flaws, they are not any worse then those of modern day Guardians, and their destruction is primarily Regulos' fault.

    Not exactly a short reply, and i have to run. I look foward to reading your counter arguments to this.

  5. #5
    Rift Master IonCannon's Avatar
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    I cant believe I get to quote myself from another thread. This was in a Guardians > Defiants thread. Now take what I said there and flip it on its side, then you will get a guardian perspective. I don't have time to keep writing this sh*t out. In fact my word should just be law when it comes to lore. In terms of power, morality, etc... Guardians = Defiants (no one is better).

    Quote Originally Posted by IonCannon View Post
    While its fine to cling to the idea of purity in high fantasy the pristine nature of the world is truly often bleak in comparison to a modern values system. This idea the world is black and white, that good and evil are so obvious simply does not exist and it certainly doesn't for the world of Telara. In the case of the Guardian it is outright racism and religious fanaticism that has permeated throughout their their society. Anyone who doesn't follow the Vigil is branded a heretic and worthy of extermination. Worse yet the people, the ascended, that are products of Magitech are seen abominations in the eyes of the Vigil and Guardians. It is outright heresy to attempt to replicate the miracles of gods and those who are the by product of it are not people they are impure monsters that must be slain.The Guardians and the Vigil have no problem with purifying there world through adjunct genocide in what they perceive as a holy mission.

    This is not a defense of the Defiant. The factions of Rift are both do what they think is right in terms of their greater goals. The greater goal is the path is that to God-hood, in that sense you are correct. The only question is do you achieve it through creativity, ingenuity, and dangerous recklessness or through doctrinal discipline, divinity, and fanaticism. its just a matter of what road you take.

    Edit: Defiant are way hotter.
    Last edited by IonCannon; 08-18-2013 at 12:32 PM.

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  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maeloda View Post

    1. The Guardians failed because seemingly in the original timeline, they were too focused on protecting their more secure lands (Silverwood, Moonshade, Gloamwood, and the taken-over Freemarch) than expand forth.
    I don't consider this a weakness in itself, because these zones in fact are the most 'pure' in the game, or at least they would be after a short time and Guardian effort.
    Other way around actually.
    In the failed future, the Guardians failed primarily because they acted too aggressively, and destroyed the Defiant faction rather than work with them.
    This was conducted by the Endless Court, and so in the future time line, the only ones surviving are the defiant few who barely escaped the Guardians.
    In fact, there are a few surviving Guardians as well and they can be seen fighting the Endless Court.

    Quote Originally Posted by Maeloda View Post
    Basically, disasters happen and every single faction/entity that claims the high ground on it, has actually failed in the past. The Vigil's correction to the Infinity Gate wrecking the world, is basically banning anything but the most necessary tech (and later, sourcestone consuming tech). That's also a mistake. The problem here is that there is no way of failing bigger than the Vigil did, because they were major gods. The SAME STUFF happened to mortal civilizations, but we don't compare them the same way, because it's not world spanning.
    I would not say that the Vigil failed actually.
    Judging from the lore that was presented, it has been stated the Vigil simply does not like to take a direct hand in things.
    So, for example the Empyrean's creating the Infinity Gate, or the rupturing of the Ward by orphiel.

    In fact, Orphiel's alternate self constantly tortures poor Tom, but also asks
    "The Vigil is aware of my plots, and they are also aware of the suffering I put this man through, but why is it that they do not react?"

    It is also stated in the lore that if the Ascended were to meet the Vigil, disaster would immediately follow as a result. So doubtless to say, for some reason or another they simply cannot intervene for reasons not yet explained.


    Quote Originally Posted by Maeloda View Post
    best representation
    Cyril would be the best representation of the Guardians.
    He is not over zealous but does have his limits.
    FOr example in RoS, when Asha Catari suggests using the device Plutonus was utilizing Cyril was against it, and for reasons that Zareph himself also supported.

    Quote Originally Posted by Maeloda View Post
    Kain? Guess he was screwed.
    No.
    Actually, Kain was being helped from the very beginning of Gloamwood and really started from Scarwood Reach.
    Guardian wise, it was stated Kain would either become a destroyer or a saviour, and that it would fall down as to how he resisted temptation and how the ascended player interacted with him.

    Unfortunately, you just weren't around to help prevent Kain from touching artifacts involving Regulos.
    Quote Originally Posted by Maeloda View Post
    Hylas? Well, he died.
    No.
    There were several attempts made to create peace and to bring Hylas back into the fold.
    Unfortunately, he as well involved himself in the fae, and had long given up the hope of winning the battle against Regulos.
    In his case, it was pure hopelessness, and there was nothing the Guardians could do despite numerous attempts to establish treaties with him.
    In fact he punts you from the center of Silverwood and off shore in response.

    The guardians don't wait to deal with problems, ther response time has been roughly the same.
    The difference between Kain and Uriel is that Kain was directly involved with Regulos, Uriel was indirectly influenced and so there was a greater chance of rescuing her from the path she was going.

    Quote Originally Posted by Maeloda View Post
    -Kain was detected of being on the way to evil in Iron Pine Peak, and the Guardians around him suspected this and worked against him. In Stillmoor, he massacres those trying to help him.
    So what, is he really Guardian? IMO as soon as he touched the Shards of Regulos, he was on his way to being a member of the Endless Court. Everyone else? They were fine, and wanted to protect the world and were just as capable as Defiants. Death power corrupts, and quickly. Uriel only barely survived because she was in a power structure that constantly second-looks itself.
    Read my above post.
    Kain was detected as being on the path to evil as early as GLoamwood, and it is explicitly stated Scarwood reach as well.

    The guardians tend to find out early about what their members are doing, its just that things failed on their end for one reason or another.
    In the case of Hylas, he was simply too far gone.
    In Kain, he ended up directly with shards from Regulos.

    Quote Originally Posted by Maeloda View Post
    because the elves didn't want others to do living sacrifices (oh yes, I do think that's in the lore, until Kelari took up more peaceful relations with spirits)
    It was that, and also because the High Elves themselves believed that the practice of being involved with Spirits was much too risky.
    Naturally they were right given how the Kelari came to be due to their practice with spirits and their more risky use of magic.

    It is only a few minor details though.
    Last edited by 236FF; 08-18-2013 at 03:02 PM.

  7. #7
    Ascendant xanduin246's Avatar
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    I'd just like to bring up a couple excerpts from Rift lore on Orphiel.

    "So you say the ancient Eth built war machines?" asked Aedraxis, sipping his velvet-purple wine.

    "At first, yes. Sourcestone-fueled wonders that were especially effective against the dragons. This pales in comparison to the engines of prosperity they developed based on these early inventions."

    "War so often is the father of progress," said the king.

    "A shame for progress, then, that Mathosia has known such a long peace," Orphiel said with an ironic smile.

    Aedraxis sighed, his broad shoulders sloping. "It will not last, my teacher. I fear certain citizens who've grown too rich in ambition. Like the noble Eth of old, I would have machines to bring a merciful end to my enemies."

    Orphiel leaned forward intently. "I could build you such devices, Highness, given the promise that once war is over, we explore the technology's peacetime applications."

    Aedraxis nodded sagely, and said, "Only under those conditions would I agree."
    Raj Tahleed, Dean of Planar Studies in Meridian, giving a lecture on the renaissance of Eth technology

    Of course one cannot blame Orphiel for Aedraxis's crimes. Yes, he used Orphiel's machines to break the Ward, but there is no way Orphiel could have known. Yes, perhaps Aedraxis did turn progressively more obviously sinister as the war ground on, but Farwind had been his teacher when the king was just a lad. It is hard to see wickedness in those you love. Besides, the great mind was never present for Aedraxis's deadlier tantrums, isolating himself with his work. And it was Orphiel, after all, who rallied the Eth and the Bahmi to march to Port Scion and support Prince Zareph against the rifts. He was the first Defiant, and let no man forget!
    And last I heard Orphiel's main obsession lately has been ascension. Mainly making it far more accessible to pretty much anyone. Last thing I read on that though was that Orphiel was going to start testing his experiments on himself.
    Last edited by xanduin246; 08-18-2013 at 03:24 PM.

  8. #8
    Ascendant Maeloda's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 236FF View Post
    Other way around actually.
    In the failed future, the Guardians failed primarily because they acted too aggressively, and destroyed the Defiant faction rather than work with them.
    This was conducted by the Endless Court, and so in the future time line, the only ones surviving are the defiant few who barely escaped the Guardians.
    In fact, there are a few surviving Guardians as well and they can be seen fighting the Endless Court.
    They acted aggressively *towards the Defiants*. When it comes to places like Shimmersand, Stillmoor, Iron Pine Peak, Scarwood, etc, you could assume (but yes, it's an assumption) that the Guardians did not sufficiently and quickly enough spread through these lands to save them from the Planes.

    Defiant competition was required for that. Their tit-for-tat actually helped all these lands, in the end.

    I would not say that the Vigil failed actually.
    Judging from the lore that was presented, it has been stated the Vigil simply does not like to take a direct hand in things.
    So, for example the Empyrean's creating the Infinity Gate, or the rupturing of the Ward by orphiel.
    In terms of protecting Telara, they failed utterly.

    Dusken - Completely overtaken by Death
    Ashora - Taken over by destruction and Life
    Brevane - Wrecked (but rebuilt, yeah)
    Mathosia - Also wrecked (but rebuilt, and established into Eth and Mathosia, with Dwarven and Elven lands still around)

    So ok, maybe if not failed utterly, would would be considered to at LEAST lost half the known world. So what if they don't take a direct hand? Maybe it's that lack of direct hand that resulted in half the world being screwed.

    But remember I'm taking devil's advocate on both sides (taking turns). Just comparing from what I see. I actually do think that the Vigil have a longer term plan for Telara, and greatly prefer that its people learn their lessons mostly on their own. Sometimes that means deaths. And sometimes, that's better than endangering the world constantly with tampering.

    In fact, Orphiel's alternate self constantly tortures poor Tom, but also asks
    "The Vigil is aware of my plots, and they are also aware of the suffering I put this man through, but why is it that they do not react?"
    Yeah but, that's possibly a mystery with other lore things, so I don't count it.

    It is also stated in the lore that if the Ascended were to meet the Vigil, disaster would immediately follow as a result. So doubtless to say, for some reason or another they simply cannot intervene for reasons not yet explained.
    Maybe. Personally, I believe it, even if just for the possibility that Vigil are Super Ascended and meeting their 'children' (Guardian Ascended in this case) might spark a huge-*** war. Maybe they'd rather the Guardian Ascended work things out on their own, with some blessings when required, so that eventually the Ascended that survived and completed their 'divine test' would understand what the purpose was, and just work with the Vigil, not angrily against it.

    Cyril would be the best representation of the Guardians.
    He is not over zealous but does have his limits.
    FOr example in RoS, when Asha Catari suggests using the device Plutonus was utilizing Cyril was against it, and for reasons that Zareph himself also supported.
    I actually agree. Kain is not a good representation of Guardians as the 'overall faction', Cyril is. Orphiel may be the founder, but he's not the good representation of Defiants as the 'overall faction', Asha is. My post was comparing character roles in each progressive storylines. In the Guardian one, the 'turned evil' characters had to die. In the Defiant one, the 'turned evil' characters actually get redeemed and keep working against the Cults. It's an amusing irony

    No.
    Actually, Kain was being helped from the very beginning of Gloamwood and really started from Scarwood Reach.
    Guardian wise, it was stated Kain would either become a destroyer or a saviour, and that it would fall down as to how he resisted temptation and how the ascended player interacted with him.
    I agree, except not totally here. When someone is faced with some of the most potent death corruption magic (Shards of Regulos), you can't expect AT ALL that this person would resist it. The only known person is Asha, and even then, it would have succeeded eventually over in the Plane of Death. So yeah, he has a 'choice', but it's super super super heavily stacked against him. Seriously, like 99% of mortals or Ascended would be corrupted just the same. At best, I'd imagine a very rare sliver world where Kain resisted Regulos. I mean it's his friggin essence!

    Unfortunately, you just weren't around to help prevent Kain from touching artifacts involving Regulos.
    Exactly. And neither were his fellow soldiers, it seems. The Guardians REALLY need an Unseen to keep them in check. But I guess overall now, they have the Defiants in the Empyreal Alliance, and stuff.

    No.
    There were several attempts made to create peace and to bring Hylas back into the fold.
    Unfortunately, he as well involved himself in the fae, and had long given up the hope of winning the battle against Regulos.
    In his case, it was pure hopelessness, and there was nothing the Guardians could do despite numerous attempts to establish treaties with him.
    In fact he punts you from the center of Silverwood and off shore in response.
    My point was about his ultimate fate. The Guardian one is of major figures falling, and falling, and falling, while other major figures stay pure. The Defiant one is of more minor figures resisting and succeeding and rising to prominence. Different tones. Both can be seen as overall trials, but Guardian is of might (in its various forms), and Defiant is of endurance. It's even in their faction dialogue stuff :P

    A Guardian is gonna be totally pure, or the biggest evil. It's bound to happen one way or the other. The pure ones just fight harder for those who were lost, and it gives every survivor strength.
    A Defiant might get corrupted, maybe a lot, but also maybe come back from it with some insight. Might still die or go evil though. We'll see. Let's experiment. lol

    The defiants don't wait to deal with problems, ther response time has been roughly the same.
    The difference between Kain and Uriel is that Kain was directly involved with Regulos, Uriel was indirectly influenced and so there was a greater chance of rescuing her from the path she was going.
    (edited)

    I fully agree with this one actually. It's not fair to say the temptation and influence was the same power level and importance.

    Remember that I was just giving the arguments I could, for the OP. Personally, I think the Guardian message is simply 'the mightiest will fall, but the mightiest will also persist', while Defiant is 'we don't need might when we have our wits and agility, to land us on our feet when things go soul' (or something like that). Different tactics with different results. I think the Defiant story REALLY needed another disaster though, caused by them in their quests, unrecoverable, just to even things out.

    Read my above post.
    Kain was detected as being on the path to evil as early as GLoamwood, and it is explicitly stated Scarwood reach as well.

    The guardians tend to find out early about what their members are doing, its just that things failed on their end for one reason or another.
    In the case of Hylas, he was simply too far gone.
    In Kain, he ended up directly with shards from Regulos.
    I don't recall the Gloamwood stuff, but I do remember slight hints in Scarwood, where he is beginning to be influenced. It's in Iron Pine Peak that he shows himself under the sway of Death, and Stillmoor that he crosses the line.

    I believe it was only in Iron Pine that Guardian elements actually detected something wrong, not in Scarwood. I wouldn't call that 'early', only 'just in time'. Defiant stuff is when they find out well before, or at least request others to investigate asap. Guardian investigations tend to start once stuff already begins to go sour in some apparent fashion. (This is taking in the gist of all quests, not just specific questlines)

    It was that, and also because the High Elves themselves believed that the practice of being involved with Spirits was much too risky.
    Naturally they were right given how the Kelari came to be due to their practice with spirits and their more risky use of magic.
    It is only a few minor details though.
    I don't see how the Kelari turned out all that bad, in themselves. What, different physical features? Pfft. Spoiled existence? Actually they worked damn hard to curry not just 'favor' but *relations* with spirits. Spirits then over time cared for and about the Kelari. It's all there in their quests.
    While I don't love the spirit story, it was very clear that until Dragon influence arrived again and drove spirits mad (like any creature, ultimately), the spirits were to the point of friends and allies with the Kelari. Or at least several major ones.
    I wouldn't call that 'risky'. It'd be hard to predict the waves of Akylios causing these progressive disasters.

  9. #9
    Ascendant Maeloda's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by IonCannon View Post
    I cant believe I get to quote myself from another thread. This was in a Guardians > Defiants thread. Now take what I said there and flip it on its side, then you will get a guardian perspective. I don't have time to keep writing this sh*t out. In fact my word should just be law when it comes to lore. In terms of power, morality, etc... Guardians = Defiants (no one is better).
    One small note - in the plot, the Defiants actually try several times to stop combat with the Guardians. The Guardians are the aggressors, but only because the Defiants refuse to stop their tech/magic use.

    While I don't want to use these comparisons, and this is ONLY in terms of diplomatic approach (not intent or otherwise):

    Guardians = USA
    Defiants = Iran

    "You can't use this, and we'll stop you if you try."
    "Yeah well, we'll still try it, and it'll be helpful for our nation (and to attack you if you push us)."
    "Damn you, we want to invade now. Only we can be the major power in this world."
    "You crazy? Fine, be that way. Continue the experiments and make sure to weaponize it now."
    (drama and speculation added for it to fit Rift)

    Both are at fault, but the Guardians are the aggressors while Defiants are the antagonists.

    The point is that the Guardians won't stop fighting until the Defiants, in their current form, end (even now). The Defiants, on the other hand, don't give a damn if the Guardians worship the Vigil etc, and keep trying to get them to work with them against the cults. They just refuse, or defy, the order to stop their tech.
    Last edited by Maeloda; 08-18-2013 at 04:42 PM.

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zelurk View Post
    One point i would like to add, is that the shade king was a well loved figure for most of the civil war, and Orphial, being lets face it a nerd, would have been the last to learn socially that the king went evil. To him, the rift project, if i call it thus, was purely a academic exercise, a way to learn more about the natural world such to help protect against failures. It is possible that these vary experiments that lead to the ward being sundered were meant to reinforce the ward in Orphial's mind, and were sabotaged, and it is extremely likely that the data collected from them lead to the creation of engineered wardstones. Also, it is highly implied in guardian tutorial that lesser defiants were manipulated, similer to Crucian methods. Many defiants in the tutorial have a death quote along the lines of 'what have i done?!' and such.
    The only Defiants known to be affected were those directly in the rift. All else had no traces of outside influence, they just wanted their own land (which at that point was all taken, save for the southern waste dunes wrecked by unstopped rifts), and would do anything to get it.

    Nothing shows that Orphiel gave a damn about the Ward, or even continues to, as long as he gets results. Even with the Rift open, he kept babbling about surpassing the Vigil.
    He's insane and it'll be nice to finally kill him in a raid and see Sylver take his place at the top of Meridian <3

    I would also like to add that my opinion the best representative of the Defiant as a faction is Sylver. He has overcome a rather hard past, to become a tactician of the highest order. He isn't exactly fully respectable, but everyone admits his brilliance. He also personifies the reckless streak and sometimes a shortsightedness that the defiants as a whole have, but also seeks to use his inventions to make Telara a better place.
    Exactly. Even his faults, he actually learns and admits. He won't let go of sourcestone consuming tech, but in classic Rift, he seems to understand sourcestone's importance in upholding the Ward, and in Storm Legion, he has the openness to augment its usage by mixing it with the (seemingly more stable) Empyrean tech.

    The Kelari, rather then fighting a incredibly bloody war, gave up everything they knew to live in peace. They are focused first and foremost on their own people, but i think of all the Telaran civilizations, they were the best until the disaster of Ember Isle forced them to evacuate. The ancient Eth, while far from perfect, kept their borders well defended and otherwise were one of the top three 'utopian' civilizations in Telaran history. They even granted the Bahmi a entire homeland when they emerged from the first Shade war as homeless. While they have flaws, they are not any worse then those of modern day Guardians, and their destruction is primarily Regulos' fault.
    My big problem with the Eth is that they just loved slavery. The Convocation? While you could blame other things, it ultimately rested on the shoulders of the stupid Sorcerer-Kings. Slavery though, was their culture and not one to just gloss over.

    Bahmi are honestly cool and unless we got some story twists later with them, I see nothing wrong. Screw racial purity.

    It's like, unless you hate Jebiah or dwarves in general (in all things), you can't hate the dwarves in Rift. Same with bahmi, both are 'sympathetic' races that don't have the more factional conflict related to them all. The Runeguard just want to reclaim their home, and that's bloody it... even the Guardian dwarves can be just fine with working with the Faceless Man in order to do so. The bahmi just want *A* home that's not a ravaged wasteland, and there's nothing wrong with that.

    Back to the Kelari... yes, they were doing the 'best', until recently. Mathosia was wide but it's not like the people lived in comfort. Eth was smaller (still large) and the comfort was strongly class based. Kelari? Well, there was some class segregation, but it seemed everyone shared in the fruits of co-operation with the spirits.

    At the symbolic level, I see it as the same as co-operating with Telara itself, instead of only its creators (like the Guardians do). Gaia vs God.

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maeloda View Post
    They acted aggressively *towards the Defiants*. When it comes to places like Shimmersand, Stillmoor, Iron Pine Peak, Scarwood, etc, you could assume (but yes, it's an assumption) that the Guardians did not sufficiently and quickly enough spread through these lands to save them from the Planes.

    Defiant competition was required for that. Their tit-for-tat actually helped all these lands, in the end.
    I am unsure about that statement given that I've not seen anything in the lore to suggest the Guardians were more on the defensive.
    The most I can recall is that the Guardians were aggressive towards defiants and intentionally went into their territory to conquer over Meridian.


    Quote Originally Posted by Maeloda View Post
    In terms of protecting Telara, they failed utterly.

    Dusken - Completely overtaken by Death
    Ashora - Taken over by destruction and Life
    Brevane - Wrecked (but rebuilt, yeah)
    Mathosia - Also wrecked (but rebuilt, and established into Eth and Mathosia, with Dwarven and Elven lands still around)

    So ok, maybe if not failed utterly, would would be considered to at LEAST lost half the known world. So what if they don't take a direct hand? Maybe it's that lack of direct hand that resulted in half the world being screwed.

    But remember I'm taking devil's advocate on both sides (taking turns). Just comparing from what I see. I actually do think that the Vigil have a longer term plan for Telara, and greatly prefer that its people learn their lessons mostly on their own. Sometimes that means deaths. And sometimes, that's better than endangering the world constantly with tampering.
    Actually, I wouldn't say it was a failure given that they seemingly didn't make an attempt whatsoever.
    From what I have seen, they end to be extremely passive in their behavior, and tend to let things run their own cours.
    Given that the sixth god also seemingly disappeared, perhaps there is a relation to the matter.
    i.e. A god directly interfered in Telara and suffered some major consequence or another.


    Quote Originally Posted by Maeloda View Post

    Yeah but, that's possibly a mystery with other lore things, so I don't count it.
    I would not say that, merely that it supports the idea that the Vigil cannot tke a direct hand in things.
    In all of the lore none of it ever makes a statement of the Telaran gods taking a direct hand in things outside of simply creating their races and the world we scamper about on.


    Quote Originally Posted by Maeloda View Post
    Maybe. Personally, I believe it, even if just for the possibility that Vigil are Super Ascended and meeting their 'children' (Guardian Ascended in this case) might spark a huge-*** war. Maybe they'd rather the Guardian Ascended work things out on their own, with some blessings when required, so that eventually the Ascended that survived and completed their 'divine test' would understand what the purpose was, and just work with the Vigil, not angrily against it.
    I was thinking it would be something else actually.
    Remember when maelforge stated that the god of war hid from him?
    It could be a scenario where gaining access to the vigil also opens the vigil up to stronger forces that they would want to avoid.
    Basically, to avoid some cosmic war that would possibly ruin things.
    Given that Regulos states he has hidden Telara from the gaze of other ageless beings this might be a likely scenario.


    Quote Originally Posted by Maeloda View Post
    I actually agree. Kain is not a good representation of Guardians as the 'overall faction', Cyril is. Orphiel may be the founder, but he's not the good representation of Defiants as the 'overall faction', Asha is. My post was comparing character roles in each progressive storylines. In the Guardian one, the 'turned evil' characters had to die. In the Defiant one, the 'turned evil' characters actually get redeemed and keep working against the Cults. It's an amusing irony
    Well the thing is, Uriel always seemed to have doubts in what she was doing.
    Kain was simply dedicated, and I think shows a good example of what happens when one is simply too stubborn in what they do.
    The vigil themselves seem not to like the idea given they told Brother Jebiah to quit his whining in Storm Legion.
    The guardians simply dislike sourcestone technology, and technology that involves using the souls and spirits.
    All other technology is fair game.


    Quote Originally Posted by Maeloda View Post
    I agree, except not totally here. When someone is faced with some of the most potent death corruption magic (Shards of Regulos), you can't expect AT ALL that this person would resist it. The only known person is Asha, and even then, it would have succeeded eventually over in the Plane of Death. So yeah, he has a 'choice', but it's super super super heavily stacked against him. Seriously, like 99% of mortals or Ascended would be corrupted just the same. At best, I'd imagine a very rare sliver world where Kain resisted Regulos. I mean it's his friggin essence!
    Well Asha Catari was also dead at the time and was being demanded by Regulos to join him and well, its not hard to say no i that situation.
    I think it was a combination of both his zeal to save the world and Regulos' corruption.
    As he does make a statement before his full blown transformation his intent is to redeem Telara at any cost.



    Quote Originally Posted by Maeloda View Post
    Exactly. And neither were his fellow soldiers, it seems. The Guardians REALLY need an Unseen to keep them in check. But I guess overall now, they have the Defiants in the Empyreal Alliance, and stuff.
    I wouldn't say that, I think it may be that the Guardians just do not have the manpower to do it.
    The defiant races weren't in nearly as bad shape as the Dwarves were when the game starts out.
    They've already had their respective cataclysms occur and recover.
    The dwarves however, fall apart shortly after the Shade, hence why their presence is very small compared to the elves and Mathosians.

    Quote Originally Posted by Maeloda View Post
    I don't recall the Gloamwood stuff, but I do remember slight hints in Scarwood, where he is beginning to be influenced. It's in Iron Pine Peak that he shows himself under the sway of Death, and Stillmoor that he crosses the line.
    It is very...very brief, and it involves you AFKing by the gloamwood port.
    Basically Kain comes by and whines abit, gets preachy, and passively threatens one of the other soldiers.
    Its shortly after this you head to Scarwood Reach and Kain seems to lighten up a bit.

    Quote Originally Posted by Maeloda View Post
    I believe it was only in Iron Pine that Guardian elements actually detected something wrong, not in Scarwood. I wouldn't call that 'early', only 'just in time'. Defiant stuff is when they find out well before, or at least request others to investigate asap. Guardian investigations tend to start once stuff already begins to go sour in some apparent fashion. (This is taking in the gist of all quests, not just specific questlines)
    No, you find out in Scarwood about Kain's future.
    If you do the dungeon there is a story quest line for it where the Vigil messenger's provide information regarding the future of Kain and the choice and influence he may fallunder.


    Quote Originally Posted by Maeloda View Post
    I don't see how the Kelari turned out all that bad, in themselves. What, different physical features? Pfft. Spoiled existence? Actually they worked damn hard to curry not just 'favor' but *relations* with spirits. Spirits then over time cared for and about the Kelari. It's all there in their quests.
    While I don't love the spirit story, it was very clear that until Dragon influence arrived again and drove spirits mad (like any creature, ultimately), the spirits were to the point of friends and allies with the Kelari. Or at least several major ones.
    I wouldn't call that 'risky'. It'd be hard to predict the waves of Akylios causing these progressive disasters.
    I do believe there were several scenarios before the arrival of the dragons that showed the risky issues with spirits.
    Mainly their issue to manipulate the on whom they had gone into a relationship with in the first place.
    Part of the issue with RIFT's lore is a lot of it involves artifact hunting or being at the right spot at the right time.
    So it is tricky to get a hold of everything properly.

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    Quote Originally Posted by 236FF View Post
    I am unsure about that statement given that I've not seen anything in the lore to suggest the Guardians were more on the defensive.
    The most I can recall is that the Guardians were aggressive towards defiants and intentionally went into their territory to conquer over Meridian.
    Yeah I'm even unsure of it myself, haha

    What I come from is:
    -the Guardians would have limited effectiveness to spread out, with occupying Meridian and there only being one faction worth of Ascended available
    -the whole tone of Guardian story sounds like they want to more secure what exists first, before moving onward. Defiant tone more goes like 'ok do this, but we need to fast elsewhere for ___. If you secure the land that's good too.'

    So it's just really a guess.

    Actually, I wouldn't say it was a failure given that they seemingly didn't make an attempt whatsoever.
    From what I have seen, they end to be extremely passive in their behavior, and tend to let things run their own cours.
    Given that the sixth god also seemingly disappeared, perhaps there is a relation to the matter.
    i.e. A god directly interfered in Telara and suffered some major consequence or another.
    I think you could be completely right. I think for now, Vigil lore = understanding why exactly they behaved the way they did towards the Mathosian continent peoples. In this case, "Why didn't they interfere (again)?"

    What I want to see is the Vigil's full justifications on allowing the Defiants to rot (regardless of their 'defiance'), and what they think of the factions now working together formally - even while competing occasionally in the open world and in designated fronts of war. Do they support it? I haven't played Endless Eclipse, what does the Messenger say there?

    I would not say that, merely that it supports the idea that the Vigil cannot tke a direct hand in things.
    In all of the lore none of it ever makes a statement of the Telaran gods taking a direct hand in things outside of simply creating their races and the world we scamper about on.
    I take a general cue from the Telaran conspiracy material (a few bits of it by now), the Forgotten Goddess tone, the name Empyrean for tech (aka "GOD"). If they directly involved themselves with a lot of things, I don't think the devs want us to know just how much yet. Maybe in 2.4-2.7, or whenever.

    I was thinking it would be something else actually.
    Remember when maelforge stated that the god of war hid from him?
    It could be a scenario where gaining access to the vigil also opens the vigil up to stronger forces that they would want to avoid.
    Basically, to avoid some cosmic war that would possibly ruin things.
    Given that Regulos states he has hidden Telara from the gaze of other ageless beings this might be a likely scenario.
    Could it even be a mix of our ideas? I like yours, and it makes sense - I just can't shake the feeling that the Vigil are Ascended themselves.

    I totally agree that at this point, it's evident that there's a cosmic war and only certain entities are 'allowed' to know about Telara, that being the Vigil + Blood Storm + Blood Storm invading races on the Planes (which for all we know, each have their masses stacked 'on top' of the Telaran 'layer'?). If Regulos opens his 'veil' (which is seems he has), and the Vigil expose themselves (which they might later), Telara will become more vulnerable that it ever has been since the start of its creation.

    Well the thing is, Uriel always seemed to have doubts in what she was doing.
    Kain was simply dedicated, and I think shows a good example of what happens when one is simply too stubborn in what they do.
    The vigil themselves seem not to like the idea given they told Brother Jebiah to quit his whining in Storm Legion.
    The guardians simply dislike sourcestone technology, and technology that involves using the souls and spirits.
    All other technology is fair game.
    I didn't do Guardian stuff in SL yet!, neat.

    That likely clears up a lot of stuff I typed earlier, haha.

    So basically the Vigil is saying "We don't approve of them, they're not our chosen people, but work with em. Heathens can still be effective."?

    Well Asha Catari was also dead at the time and was being demanded by Regulos to join him and well, its not hard to say no i that situation.
    I think it was a combination of both his zeal to save the world and Regulos' corruption.
    As he does make a statement before his full blown transformation his intent is to redeem Telara at any cost.
    Actually, it would be the most impossible thing to deny Regulos in that situation. His STRENGTH was not to compel the living, but the DEAD. His power in his Plane was the strongest (it would seem) because he just spreads his influence incredibly easy onto the dead, and Asha would have been no exception... except something caused her to defy. Either its a hidden plot point for later on, or it was simple defiance - the fact that any being can reject subservience to any power (in Rift), as long as they stand fast and firm.

    Or it could be that Regulos was toying with Asha and just gave her a taste of his power (tattoos) over a few weeks or whatever, she said no, and before he gave her his full blast of influence, she was whisked away by still mysterious tech of Orphiel. Maybe he wanted his 'First Bride' to come willingly?

    For Kain, while I say that it would be nearly impossible for him to resist, because he was basically gradually becoming the Avatar of Regulos over time. You can't resist that call once its focused on you, and Kain perhaps lost the whole test of himself even back in Scarwood, and he just didn't know it yet.

    I wouldn't say that, I think it may be that the Guardians just do not have the manpower to do it.
    The defiant races weren't in nearly as bad shape as the Dwarves were when the game starts out.
    They've already had their respective cataclysms occur and recover.
    The dwarves however, fall apart shortly after the Shade, hence why their presence is very small compared to the elves and Mathosians.
    Actually the Guardians are in better shape overall, just not outright surpassing the Defiants.

    The Defiants start off in terrible shape, with only enough to take over Meridian (and only due to sabotage from Faceless Man).

    Eth - Some tribes left in Shimmersand, Arcane Hand... that's it. Most survivors joined Orphiel, then to Port Scion, then to Meridian.
    Kelari - Ragtag group with leader. Only a few ships survived the trip.
    Bahmi - Um like a tribe or two made it. Everyone else assumed dead. Um some in Iron Pine.

    The Guardians band together for common good and purpose, but even the story lays out the (flawed, as we see) option of going their own way like Hylas and the Aelfwar, and Mathosians bloody everywhere, though I'd agree on low numbers of Dwarves.

    The Defiant? At least initially, they join because they're all outright screwed if they don't become one force. The Eth are (/were) too selfish, the Kelari too isolationist, and Bahmi too proud to all worth together as one group (by this I mean Bahmi working with Kelari), unless things were absolutely dire.

    Of course by this point this stuff is moot - the Defiants now like working together. But all I'm saying is that ALL the Defiant races make up only a small group relative to the Guardians at first (1.0 Freemarch), they just gather many allies along the way after that. The Guardians had still the upper hand of Mathosians still being everywhere, and Elves (at first) seemingly allied in Silverwood and strong. They lose this advantage over time, and the Defiants take up the slack, so by the end of 1.0 questing, they're about equal in power.

    And by the end of 1.0 questing, I'd actually say the Guardians have learned their lesson. Ever since it, I haven't seen any story of the Guardians being screwed over by betrayal that they never detected in time to stop it. IN FACT!, in the Water Saga, they advise you proactively (almost Unseen like!). So while I'd say that this stuff is a weakness of theirs, it seems that they do have some measure of growth and have turned this weakness into a strength.

    It is very...very brief, and it involves you AFKing by the gloamwood port.
    Basically Kain comes by and whines abit, gets preachy, and passively threatens one of the other soldiers.
    Its shortly after this you head to Scarwood Reach and Kain seems to lighten up a bit.
    Oh, I actually remember that! Thanks.

    No, you find out in Scarwood about Kain's future.
    If you do the dungeon there is a story quest line for it where the Vigil messenger's provide information regarding the future of Kain and the choice and influence he may fallunder.
    Oh shoot, I actually did that but forgot also.
    Yeah, it's in Scarwood that the signs show, but our characters still just do their thing. It's only into Iron Pine Peak, however, that the Guardian faction itself (NOT THE VIGIL) detects something has gone wrong. Which I guess was too late. The Vigil was right that it comes down to Kain's choice, and he chose poorly.

    I do believe there were several scenarios before the arrival of the dragons that showed the risky issues with spirits.
    Mainly their issue to manipulate the on whom they had gone into a relationship with in the first place.
    Part of the issue with RIFT's lore is a lot of it involves artifact hunting or being at the right spot at the right time.
    So it is tricky to get a hold of everything properly.
    -I think you're right about the spirits. It does settle into a comfortable place before the Fire Islands sink, though. But that's really with everything in Rift -"Things are comfortable, then everyone dies." XD

    -And yeah, agreed. Rift's lore itself is actually very extensive. It's just that its approach is less conventional 'storytime' and more 'artifact hunting'. It's there when you look for it, and it doesn't let go after that

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