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Thread: Maybe I am missing something

  1. #1
    Soulwalker
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    Default Maybe I am missing something

    But from reading the text as I went (granted only to level 8 so far) I got the impression that creating an ascended was the last hope to save the world from the evil forces from the rifts but it was too late. Then it was decided to send me back through time to prevent the mistakes from happening. As a fan of all sci-fi and fantasy as absurd as that sounds I have zero problem with it The problem I have is if I am the ascended who is here to save the world what is the explanation for all of the other ascended that I am grouping and playing with?

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    Champion Pretext's Avatar
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    This is an example of the hero problem in MMO’s. Are you the hero or a hero? In a solo game there is no problem you are the hero. In a MMO things get a little tricky. In AoC we were all the chosen one, it was a bit silly.

    My take is this, enjoy the story but for RP purposes just pretend it did not happen quite the way they say. Otherwise we are all going to be the one who is destined to save the world. You often have to do something like this. Using AoC again, you all start shipwrecked and fight you way out of slavery. This is very unlikely to fit everyone’s background story; for those players you just pretend that never happened to you. As a roleplayer you have to do this a lot in a MMO, goes with the territory.

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    Telaran Darkfae's Avatar
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    Pretext nailed it on the head pretty well there. I have just a little smidge to add to his train of thought.

    I believe the reason the line between "a hero" and "the hero" is often blurred by an MMO or pointing in the "the hero" direction to give the player a sense of importance while experiencing an epic storyline. A lot of MMOs end up falling flat on the delivery, though - I can only think of one moment prior to Rift where all I could say is that it felt amazingly epic (the first time through the Wrath Gate end mission, where you get buffed up a bit and fight along side the faction leaders). At least that was from the design team; I have seen some pretty epic plotkits in the CoX Architect system.

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    it actually works - in the beginner instance you are just one aspirant ascended against many - the world finish when you enter the final temporal gateway so only you are -the- ascended... of that timeline.
    as the time machine its always set to bring "THE" ascended (whoever he is in that particular timeline) at the exact same point in time, they just build up - time repeating as they arent enough to defeat regolus but each cycle changing just a bit from the added ascended so the new cycle will bring a new one that's just a little different (that's why we mostly look alike ).
    repeat enough cycles and you will have an infinite number of ascended, everyone of them "the" ascended.
    looks like trion nearly found the loophole to make the mmo "hero paradox" work

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    Telaran Darkfae's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nix-zero View Post
    it actually works - in the beginner instance you are just one aspirant ascended against many - the world finish when you enter the final temporal gateway so only you are -the- ascended... of that timeline.
    as the time machine its always set to bring "THE" ascended (whoever he is in that particular timeline) at the exact same point in time, they just build up - time repeating as they arent enough to defeat regolus but each cycle changing just a bit from the added ascended so the new cycle will bring a new one that's just a little different (that's why we mostly look alike ).
    repeat enough cycles and you will have an infinite number of ascended, everyone of them "the" ascended.
    looks like trion nearly found the loophole to make the mmo "hero paradox" work
    That's one way to apply the MWI! Good theory! That one really accounts for the influx of new players we'll see over the life of the game, a lot better than some of the ideas I've heard. I'd thought about the divergences and potential alternate timelines but I never thought about the idea that each Defiant Ascendant arriving from the future may all be from different and individual timelines.

    And I like the term "hero paradox", given that arising issues in time theories are call paradoxes.

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    Champion Pretext's Avatar
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    Its a bit cheeky but I like it. The fact is in game if you use RP in kin chat for example, you are going to have to /tell my explanation, it is always good to have a RP one up your sleeve.

    My only reservation, it does tie us down to a splintered timeline and makes the time machine even more important than it already is. Already you could argue we should be fightning over the time machine not the world, this makes that more acute. But its still a nice explaination.

  7. #7
    Soulwalker
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nix-zero View Post
    it actually works - in the beginner instance you are just one aspirant ascended against many - the world finish when you enter the final temporal gateway so only you are -the- ascended... of that timeline.
    as the time machine its always set to bring "THE" ascended (whoever he is in that particular timeline) at the exact same point in time, they just build up - time repeating as they arent enough to defeat regolus but each cycle changing just a bit from the added ascended so the new cycle will bring a new one that's just a little different (that's why we mostly look alike ).
    repeat enough cycles and you will have an infinite number of ascended, everyone of them "the" ascended.
    looks like trion nearly found the loophole to make the mmo "hero paradox" work
    I have absolutely no problem with a multi-verse, multi-timeline type scenario, I would just like it to be known that that is what is happening. It would actually be a relatively simple explanation for a complex story problem.

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    Telaran Darkfae's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pretext View Post
    My only reservation, it does tie us down to a splintered timeline and makes the time machine even more important than it already is. Already you could argue we should be fightning over the time machine not the world, this makes that more acute. But its still a nice explaination.
    It only goes one way, and from what I can tell, it can only go to the point where it became fully operational. That makes it a bit less important, since there's no other use for it aside from that. And if Orphiel isn't stupid, he hasn't written down how to build it or likely even told anyone else the exacts to avoid it being used for anything but sending Defiant Ascendants back in time as soon as he refined the process of making them; the only reason, I think, he was able to bring Asha back so much earlier is because of how strong of a soul Regulos' power dump made her.

    Time machines become a lot less useful if they can't go both ways and/or go to a very specific point in time. And since time continued moving after the first future Defiant arrived, there would be little possibility of being able to go back and stop the Shade War or anything. Also, the Guardians all prescribe to the ideal that machina are terrible things that should not be used, so they don't have much point in getting at the fail safe. The Dragon Cults might consider it, but they're an NPC faction and completely controlled by the dev team, which would make any "steal the time machine" plot completely preventable or stoppable.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pretext View Post
    My only reservation, it does tie us down to a splintered timeline and makes the time machine even more important than it already is. Already you could argue we should be fightning over the time machine not the world, this makes that more acute. But its still a nice explaination.
    This.

    Time travel as a plot device destroys causality, therefore destroying any logical understanding of the storyline. People get confused, and have to invent convoluted means to restore causality to their understanding of the world the story takes place in.

    I feel that using time travel as a plot device when time travel is not central to the plot (ex: Star Trek) is a sign of a lack of respect for the world the storyteller is spinning. We now have at least two uses of the time travel device, the Defiant's and Lantern Hook. This is plain intellectual laziness.

    Is time travel going to be a central theme in Rift? Otherwise, the story of Telara has already jumped the shark.

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    Telaran Vasilije's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pretext View Post
    In AoC we were all the chosen one, it was a bit silly.
    Nah just me.

    That black guy on the beach just lied to the rest of you. One big charade. I know this because he told me, and I was the only one who actually got to lay that Blonde chick on the beach. The rest of you only got her to cut herself or something, and honestly, shame on you all. She probably already has serious psychological problems cause of her profession.

    Anyway, the ascended creations as a whole are the heroes. I don't reckon they expect one fella to poke Reggie and save the world.

  11. #11
    RIFT Fan Site Operator EntreNous's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tlewis1701 View Post
    But from reading the text as I went (granted only to level 8 so far) I got the impression that creating an ascended was the last hope to save the world from the evil forces from the rifts but it was too late. Then it was decided to send me back through time to prevent the mistakes from happening. As a fan of all sci-fi and fantasy as absurd as that sounds I have zero problem with it The problem I have is if I am the ascended who is here to save the world what is the explanation for all of the other ascended that I am grouping and playing with?
    Sylver Valis does actually tell you that you will not be alone in your journey ... "This Failsafe will send you, our engineered soldier and others like you, back in time to the moment it was built. this moment should hopefully be long enough before the chain of events that lead to Regulos' victory that you can affect meaningful change."

    The rest is here

    I know this doesn't answer all your questions, but it is a start!
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  12. #12
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    Time travel does not have to violate causality, see the Novikov Self Consistency Principle.
    David Lewis's use of compossibility is similar.
    Those two mean that the heroes WILL fail, and the future will not be changed.
    Multiple timelines solves the issue, but may be less acceptable. Then again, there are already multiple "planes" of existence, so why not multiples of the multiples? That could also explain why every <calling> can summon the first <soul type> and absorb and bind it. 1 branch per player = 1 original soul each. New player gets a new set of souls. You summon the first soul from your particular future timeline's plane of death.
    Last edited by SoAnIs; 01-28-2011 at 10:38 PM.

  13. #13
    Rift Disciple Arnorei's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pretext View Post
    This is an example of the hero problem in MMO’s. Are you the hero or a hero? In a solo game there is no problem you are the hero. In a MMO things get a little tricky. In AoC we were all the chosen one, it was a bit silly.

    My take is this, enjoy the story but for RP purposes just pretend it did not happen quite the way they say. Otherwise we are all going to be the one who is destined to save the world. You often have to do something like this. Using AoC again, you all start shipwrecked and fight you way out of slavery. This is very unlikely to fit everyone’s background story; for those players you just pretend that never happened to you. As a roleplayer you have to do this a lot in a MMO, goes with the territory.
    I like this ideea, explains how there are so many heroes all over everywhere.

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