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Thread: Kelari and High-Elves.

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    Soulwalker lizon0202's Avatar
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    Default Kelari and High-Elves.

    I'm not sure if there has been discussions over this, but i couldn't find anything so here goes:

    I often hear that Kelari and High Elves are unable to have children together, but for a number of reasons that seems unlikely to me.
    1: They share a common ancestor and are basicly the same race, but adapted to different environments. in my mind they are like white people and black people (Sorry if that offends anyone.)
    2: the Kelari first started changing from the high-elves 1500 years before the current setting. With a lifespan of around 300 years, that would mean around 7-8 generations, in which time the gene pool can hardly mutate enough to make them incompatible, considering they do not mingle with other races.
    3: Even if that were to be the case, i refer to certain species of donkeys and horses, which together can get a perfectly healthy mule fowl. The only defect in those is that they are unable to reproduce themselves.

    The only reason i can think of that would make them incompatible would be that somehow the connection to the spirits would have altered the Kelari, but that seems unlikely since it's been a relationship of mutual offerings. You give some you get some.

    Can someone expand on this?

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    Ascendant Maeloda's Avatar
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    Who's saying they can't have children? Bleh. Pretty sure all the current playable races can mate, though it's an unknown whether Ascended can produce children (imo they can, and the Lore lead is just being vague on it until it can be confirmed in a story).

    However, the races tend to keep to themselves. Exceptions include:

    Eth + Shalastari = Bahmi (and Bahmi + Eth = just more half bred Bahmi-Eth. Bahmi is a cultural plus racial group)

    Elves + Humans (Eth or Mathosian) = Half-Elves, they're just not featured like at all.. but nothing against it happening. Elves are just reclusive.

    And Dwarves are pretty reclusive as well, until the Blood Storm War, and even then, they were usually in their own societies until the Shade.

    Kelari are just plane/nexus/spirit (planar)-warped High Elves, after much magical exposure. Same would happen to Dwarves, and kinda did happen to Humans with the Bahmi breeding, just through different method and outcome. Rift's Dark Elves. No reason to think they couldn't mate with High Elves - they just became different races, and all 6 races are likely of some bigger 'sourcestone' lineage anyway.. imo.


    The outcome of a High Elf and a Kelari, however, would be a more unknown outcome. They've lived separately for a while now, and only recently are even openly communicating. Possibilities include:

    1)The child loses affinity to connect with spirits, yet it also considered a mutation by the elves (lose/lose)
    2)The child loses affinity to connect with spirits, but elves still welcome it (lose/win).
    3)The child maintains or strengthens connection to spirits, and is not welcomed by the elves (win/lose)

    or... what is more likely with hybrid races in fantasy...

    4)The child gets special ability to communicate with spirits of Telara and maybe even more, and also progresses the High Elves into some better standing with the Vigil, or something yet unknown - whatever, something big.

    We'd have our messiah uber child, which does happen a lot :S

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    RIFT Community Ambassador Talila's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maeloda View Post
    Who's saying they can't have children? Bleh.
    The loredevs :3

    How do the different races view cross-racial romance? Can certain races (for instance, High Elves and Mathosians) mate successfully? We know Shalastiri and Eth could.

    There are certain races that frown on cross-racial romance more heavily, namely the dwarves and the Kelari, as their cultures are a bit more separate than the others. It is most common for all races to pair within their own races, but other romances are not unknown. Surprisingly, the Bahmi have become considerably less welcoming of it than their ancestors, mostly because they see every generation in which they mix with humans as a thinning of their Shalastiri blood and so a further separation from their ancestors and the Plane of Air.
    There has never been any successful breeding between the native races of Telara. The Shalastiri and human pairing remains the only one thus far that has produced an offspring, so it would seem that elemental and Telaran pairings are not out of the question.
    So no half-elves in this universe If I was to see one in-game i'd take them for a fully-fledged member of whichever race they picked to play with, rather than accepting the half-ness.

    http://riftrp.net/index.php?topic=1955.0
    Last edited by Talila; 08-12-2013 at 12:37 AM.
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    RIFT Community Ambassador Talila's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lizon0202 View Post
    I'm not sure if there has been discussions over this, but i couldn't find anything so here goes:

    I often hear that Kelari and High Elves are unable to have children together, but for a number of reasons that seems unlikely to me.
    1: They share a common ancestor and are basicly the same race, but adapted to different environments. in my mind they are like white people and black people (Sorry if that offends anyone.)
    2: the Kelari first started changing from the high-elves 1500 years before the current setting. With a lifespan of around 300 years, that would mean around 7-8 generations, in which time the gene pool can hardly mutate enough to make them incompatible, considering they do not mingle with other races.
    3: Even if that were to be the case, i refer to certain species of donkeys and horses, which together can get a perfectly healthy mule fowl. The only defect in those is that they are unable to reproduce themselves.

    The only reason i can think of that would make them incompatible would be that somehow the connection to the spirits would have altered the Kelari, but that seems unlikely since it's been a relationship of mutual offerings. You give some you get some.

    Can someone expand on this?
    1. They may look like a dark high-elf, and yes they did come from them, but they have been Magically mutated, to a point where their anatomy might not even be the complete same anymore.
    2. Same as 1, you're forgetting magic was in this. It's a fantasy universe, our worlds logics for how fast genes mutate do not apply, to the kelari at least - but I wouldn't recommend thinking that it would for any race.
    3. They can't cross-breed and cross-romances are usually frowned upon. I refer to #1 about their anatomy might being different despite looking the same.
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    Shield of Telara Questoften's Avatar
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    When a high elf loves a Kelari
    Can't keep his mind on nothin' else
    He'd trade the world
    For a good thing he's found
    If she is bad, he can't see it
    She can do no wrong
    Turn his back on his best friend
    If he puts her down
    Truth is Beauty, Beauty Truth..

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    Soulwalker lizon0202's Avatar
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    1. They may look like a dark high-elf, and yes they did come from them, but they have been Magically mutated, to a point where their anatomy might not even be the complete same anymore.
    2. Same as 1, you're forgetting magic was in this. It's a fantasy universe, our worlds logics for how fast genes mutate do not apply, to the kelari at least - but I wouldn't recommend thinking that it would for any race.
    3. They can't cross-breed and cross-romances are usually frowned upon. I refer to #1 about their anatomy might being different despite looking the same.
    If magic is the main reason then how come Eth and Shalastiri, who are beings from the plane of air aka magical beings could produce offspring? Also, that pairing is the only one known to -date-, and with Kelari and High Elves just opening communicative channels again, it could be that earlier offspring was kept quiet and went unnoticed because the offspring resembled one of the parents sufficiently to stay under the radar.

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    Ascendant Maeloda's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Talila View Post
    The loredevs :3



    So no half-elves in this universe If I was to see one in-game i'd take them for a fully-fledged member of whichever race they picked to play with, rather than accepting the half-ness.

    http://riftrp.net/index.php?topic=1955.0
    No, I know about that Q&A. It doesn't say they can't, just that they haven't - most typically the reason is because the cultures have been far too separated until 2-20 years ago.

    So far, I think it's possible, but like.. when we try to mate two farming animals for our own purposes for our own wants. When we try this, it often DOESN'T work out, and always or almost always, the half-bred offspring can't create offspring of their own, but the half-bred itself CAN happen.

    So I'm not saying that Telaran races are going to half-breed all over the place, but is it technically possible? Mix of Earth + fantasy-genre history tends to point to yes, but its impact will be super limited until/unless lore writers decide to put it in, in some big way.

    And Lizon could be entirely correct. Both races, until just VERY recently, had elitist focused efforts to keep cultures entirely separate. You think a high elf would even accept a half-Kelari? Or even vice versa (as of 1.0 Rift)? Only into the 2.0-3.0 generation of Rift would it even become a remotely viable concept, socially.


    Personal conclusion: It's possible but difficult, and even if it could happen, the writers need a REASON to put it in as a plot point. So the result is - don't worry about it, but feel free to RP it in realistic format until the lore writers concretely confirm either way.
    Last edited by Maeloda; 08-12-2013 at 01:35 PM.

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    RIFT Community Ambassador Talila's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lizon0202 View Post
    If magic is the main reason then how come Eth and Shalastiri, who are beings from the plane of air aka magical beings could produce offspring? Also, that pairing is the only one known to -date-, and with Kelari and High Elves just opening communicative channels again, it could be that earlier offspring was kept quiet and went unnoticed because the offspring resembled one of the parents sufficiently to stay under the radar.
    The Shalistiri were air elementals that got trapped in Telara after the first bloodstorm. Magic comes from the various planes, so the Shalistiri could probably be called magical beings, but anyhow the border between telaran and elemental breeding doesn't seem to prevent anything. So, if you want to go bone a goblin I guess you'd see some interesting results..
    The Bahmi are what the Shalistiri turned into after generations of generous humping.
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    RIFT Community Ambassador Talila's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maeloda View Post
    No, I know about that Q&A. It doesn't say they can't, just that they haven't - most typically the reason is because the cultures have been far too separated until 2-20 years ago.

    So far, I think it's possible, but like.. when we try to mate two farming animals for our own purposes for our own wants. When we try this, it often DOESN'T work out, and always or almost always, the half-bred offspring can't create offspring of their own, but the half-bred itself CAN happen.

    So I'm not saying that Telaran races are going to half-breed all over the place, but is it technically possible? Mix of Earth + fantasy-genre history tends to point to yes, but its impact will be super limited until/unless lore writers decide to put it in, in some big way.

    And Lizon could be entirely correct. Both races, until just VERY recently, had elitist focused efforts to keep cultures entirely separate. You think a high elf would even accept a half-Kelari? Or even vice versa (as of 1.0 Rift)? Only into the 2.0-3.0 generation of Rift would it even become a remotely viable concept, socially.


    Personal conclusion: It's possible but difficult, and even if it could happen, the writers need a REASON to put it in as a plot point. So the result is - don't worry about it, but feel free to RP it in realistic format until the lore writers concretely confirm either way.
    I fully take the dev's reply as a no, but with the reservation that they might decide to do something with it in the future. As a roleplayer, when playing with the lore, I do not think it's fair for the roleplayers to go and do things that could alter the society/universe in great ways - because then the loredevs HAVE to follow up on it, and if they decide they don't like it, whatever you've been rping will likely be shot down. Which is never a nice situation (I refer to "ascension is final", pretty much the entirety of ascended on Argent would have to reroll their stories to follow this. The choice not to is in the spirit of allowing diversity in RP which would otherwise not happen at all, forcing in-breeding down on the world wouldn't be in the same alley) - I mean we're talking an event here which if Telara had a newspaper, would cause headline news. It's NEVER been seen before, it'd be sensational, a lot of people would be angry and some people would be happy but there'd be a crisis in culture.

    Anything is possible but you have to be responsible with what you do, that's the only thing that's stopping occurrences such as a vampire werewolf strolling into a bar all casually, swinging out their lute and giving a nice little show.

    Also, Telarans were living in unconflicted peace for hundreds of years before the whole civil war+shade happened. There'd have been natural cultural view to keep for example elves and dwarfs apart (They don't like each other after a couple of wars between them) - I'm using dwarfs as an example because the Kelari went missing for 1000 years and didn't show up until maybe 5-10 years ago tops. But between human/dwarf for example, I don't see much cultural points to say that they'd never have tried, etc. It's not happened even after all of that peace (I'd assume peace alone inspires more humping because it's safe to raise the offspring) and I don't think it's going to in the future either.

    Unless cursor reads this and gets ideas.

    *peers*
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    Ascendant Maeloda's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Talila View Post
    The Shalistiri were air elementals that got trapped in Telara after the first bloodstorm. Magic comes from the various planes, so the Shalistiri could probably be called magical beings, but anyhow the border between telaran and elemental breeding doesn't seem to prevent anything. So, if you want to go bone a goblin I guess you'd see some interesting results..
    The Bahmi are what the Shalistiri turned into after generations of generous humping.
    And he Nexus is simply the combination of all 6 planes. Kelari being spirit/nexus affected really, to me, just makes them a different sort of partial-planar being like Bahmi. I don't think it makes them infertile against others of their origin race.

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    Ascendant Maeloda's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Talila View Post
    I fully take the dev's reply as a no, but with the reservation that they might decide to do something with it in the future. As a roleplayer, when playing with the lore, I do not think it's fair for the roleplayers to go and do things that could alter the society/universe in great ways - because then the loredevs HAVE to follow up on it, and if they decide they don't like it, whatever you've been rping will likely be shot down. Which is never a nice situation (I refer to "ascension is final", pretty much the entirety of ascended on Argent would have to reroll their stories to follow this. The choice not to is in the spirit of allowing diversity in RP which would otherwise not happen at all, forcing in-breeding down on the world wouldn't be in the same alley) - I mean we're talking an event here which if Telara had a newspaper, would cause headline news. It's NEVER been seen before, it'd be sensational, a lot of people would be angry and some people would be happy but there'd be a crisis in culture.

    Anything is possible but you have to be responsible with what you do, that's the only thing that's stopping occurrences such as a vampire werewolf strolling into a bar all casually, swinging out their lute and giving a nice little show.

    Also, Telarans were living in unconflicted peace for hundreds of years before the whole civil war+shade happened. There'd have been natural cultural view to keep for example elves and dwarfs apart (They don't like each other after a couple of wars between them) - I'm using dwarfs as an example because the Kelari went missing for 1000 years and didn't show up until maybe 5-10 years ago tops. But between human/dwarf for example, I don't see much cultural points to say that they'd never have tried, etc. It's not happened even after all of that peace (I'd assume peace alone inspires more humping because it's safe to raise the offspring) and I don't think it's going to in the future either.

    Unless cursor reads this and gets ideas.

    *peers*
    I don't agree that it would be an outright crisis in culture. MMOs like this move fast in story, and the most we'd get is a few questlines and events. Basically, it's only been what, 100s to 1000+ years since Kelari were just Elves that broke off from the main group? That's a substantial time, but it's truly not like a goblin mating with a human . If anything, the bigger issue would have been with Shalastari mating with humans.

    And Kelari-Elf isn't even like Dwarven-Human. We at least *know* that Kelari CAME FROM Elves. They're even, in fact, elves.

    If Cursor went out and said that no, Kelari are too plane/nexus/whatever warped to mate with Elves, I'd get that. In the reply, however, most of it went about how the cultures separated (so what), and no successful offspring happened (well for Kelari, they've kinda been gone for a good while!).

    I think Kelari-Elf is likely possible, but only to be addressed if the writers want it to. It's then trickier when between Human/Bahmi, Elves/Kelari, and Dwarves. Apparently though, Trion thinks that the most DRASTIC of mating, Planar/Telaran, IS possible, which makes me laugh about this while thing

    I really just think Telaran cultures didn't promote even close relations until very very recently, after Eth, then Mathosia and Fire Islands, then Port Scion all fell.
    Even the Bahmi in Iron Pine did their own thing. It's only with nearly forced intermingling at this point, do I think that story with hybrid offspring are possible. So far, nothing to say they can't, just that it hasn't happened.

    OH man, so much typing about a hypothetical! I'm gonna take a break.

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    Ascendant Maeloda's Avatar
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    One possibility I considered is that the Vigil in their quest for purity (I guess), made the 3 Telaran origin races to be only of their own. Kelari are a mutation because they went against all Vigil guidance and communed with spirits/the core of Telara, instead of them. Bahmi are an abomination because they found some way to mate with humans, breaking the rules set by the Vigil, who wanted 3 solid and very concretely defined species.

    Basically, the Vigil are High Fantasy lovers that don't want their alternate concepts or sci-fi in their lore! ;)

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    Shield of Telara Questoften's Avatar
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    I wrote a fanfic about a high elf guardian ascended, who fell in love and wed a Kelari Ascended, he and her took up in a contested region I invented, but had no offspring.
    Truth is Beauty, Beauty Truth..

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    Ascendant Maeloda's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Questoften View Post
    I wrote a fanfic about a high elf guardian ascended, who fell in love and wed a Kelari Ascended, he and her took up in a contested region I invented, but had no offspring.
    Yeah, that makes me think that considering that Trion is allowing Kelari-High Elf weddings, it's at least ALLOWED to happen by this point. Not that faction fanatics (I'm talking about NPCs! Don't hurt me!) would approve of it.

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    Shield of Telara Questoften's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maeloda View Post
    Yeah, that makes me think that considering that Trion is allowing Kelari-High Elf weddings, it's at least ALLOWED to happen by this point. Not that faction fanatics (I'm talking about NPCs! Don't hurt me!) would approve of it.
    When worlds, collide, a forbidden romance, High elf and Kelari? What dose it all mean? Find out next time on days of our lives.
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