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Thread: Are the gods powerless unless they have sourcestone?

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    Rift Chaser Tomoyuki's Avatar
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    Post Are the gods powerless unless they have sourcestone?

    I have read through the Blood storm lore and might have missed something but is the gods in this game powerless? I mean the only reason why they are called gods is because they know how to use source stone but other then that they are powerless and the only reason why the gods are against the Defiant is because they can harness it efficiently compared to the Defiant which actually destroys the source stone. Based off the lore I would think that source stone is basically like oil and non replenish able which is the reason why there is animosity between the Guardians/Defiant.

    Also another question is this how magic is used is because that we have source stone and we can use it to harness the powers of the universe correct?
    Last edited by Tomoyuki; 09-26-2010 at 05:24 PM. Reason: corrections/adding

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    Ascendant Kula's Avatar
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    Listen to today's podcast & alot more will be clear: http://forums.riftgame.com/showthrea...-CaptainCursor!

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    Rift Chaser Tomoyuki's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kula View Post
    Listen to today's podcast & alot more will be clear: http://forums.riftgame.com/showthrea...-CaptainCursor!
    Thank you for the post I was afraid that the sub forum for lore was completely dead.

    I did listen to the pod cast twice to make sure I did not miss anything. But I did not hear anything on the lore other then they are gods which created Telera and it still did not answer that they got their power only from source stone (which I believe) or comes from them because they are gods. I do know now that the Dragons never created their planes and that the planes are corrupted by them so that it may serve their ends.

    If I did miss it can you tell me where they discussed the gods being self sufficient with their power and doesn't need to use source stone as a crutch? I get the idea that without source stone the gods of Telera wouldn't have been able to create anything unless there was a pile of source stone sitting there.

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    Official Rift Founding Fan Site Operator Arithion's Avatar
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    What I gathered (and I'm definitely no source of information - I just ask questions lol) was that the Gods are powerful in their own right for they created the world of Telara. The gods have power, but the Bloodstorm have corrupted the power of the individual elemental planes and are seeking to break through and take over the world - and for this, the Gods need their heroes.

    And the Defiant want to help themselves.

    The point of contention between the factions is that:
    To the Guardians the sourcestone is a sacred relic - one to be revered and held in awe - even prayed to.
    The Defiants use the sourcestone they find not to pray, but to channel their magics and technologies.

    I'm not sure if this helped, and I'm also not sure if this is entirely accurate, but it's my understanding.
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    Rift Team captaincursor's Avatar
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    The gods are not powerless without sourcestone. But the gods ability to take direct action in Telara is limited. There are rules to be followed that not even they can break. They can best work their will on Telara by acting through the Guardians who they have raised up to become Ascended souls. If you are a Guardian player, you are the finest expression of the power of the Vigil, no longer mortal, not quite divine.

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    Champion 13moons's Avatar
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    cant get better person to answer than that.. gotta love it..





    the guardians are deputized to protect and serve.

    the defiant simply said : " we don't need no stinking badges"
    Last edited by 13moons; 09-27-2010 at 04:15 PM.

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    Champion 13moons's Avatar
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    nothing to see here ..move along

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    Rift Chaser Tomoyuki's Avatar
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    Question

    I would like to thank everyone for the responses to help me understand the gods of Telera. I will try to point out things in the lore that might have confused me and could use the explanation and apologize if I am being nit picky on the lore.

    Quote Originally Posted by Arithion View Post
    What I gathered (and I'm definitely no source of information - I just ask questions lol) was that the Gods are powerful in their own right for they created the world of Telara. The gods have power, but the Bloodstorm have corrupted the power of the individual elemental planes and are seeking to break through and take over the world - and for this, the Gods need their heroes.

    And the Defiant want to help themselves.

    The point of contention between the factions is that:
    To the Guardians the sourcestone is a sacred relic - one to be revered and held in awe - even prayed to.
    The Defiants use the sourcestone they find not to pray, but to channel their magics and technologies.

    I'm not sure if this helped, and I'm also not sure if this is entirely accurate, but it's my understanding.

    Quote Originally Posted by captaincursor View Post
    The gods are not powerless without sourcestone. But the gods ability to take direct action in Telara is limited. There are rules to be followed that not even they can break. They can best work their will on Telara by acting through the Guardians who they have raised up to become Ascended souls. If you are a Guardian player, you are the finest expression of the power of the Vigil, no longer mortal, not quite divine.

    I do understand the part the Guardians and Defiant plays in the world and learned about how the dragons claimed the planes and corrupted them through the recent pod cast that clears up many questions that would have risen. But the issue I have is that source stone is used to tap into the cosmic energy of the elements is what I got from the lore. But the issue arises here where the first two paragraphs explains that without source stone you can not create anything.

    It then explains that the gods used the source stone to shape the world of Telera so one would think that the gods actually have no power of their own and they only possess the knowledge either learned or innate (pointing towards innate since there is not enough info to say that they learned it). So the only reason why they are considered gods is mainly because of the fact that they learned or already knew how to use source stone to create the world of Telera. Which would then explain why the gods does not look to kindly at the fact that the Defiant is using source stone to use the same powerful magic that the gods can wield.

    It also opens up more questions later like if the Defiant is destroying the source stone attempting the use the powers that is only the gods are allowed? I maybe misinterpreted the history but it seems clear that the gods need the source stone to take advantage of the elemental/cosmic power just like the Defiant needs them to take advantage of the same powers and that the only reason why the Defiant is disliked is because the gods feel threatened that humans can soon learn how to wield the powerful source stone.

    I thank you again for the posts and look forward to your reply's on the subject .

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    Champion 13moons's Avatar
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    this is how i have come to understand the function of sourcestone to the lore.

    hopefully, that 70'- 80'ss pop act "the captain and the cookie" will set me straight if the following is somehow backasswards.

    ... after the appearance on the "love boat"


    think of sourcestone as the 5th alchemical element : "ether".. http://www.alchemylab.com/quantum2.htm

    sourcestone its the vessel that by which transmutation is conceived . the divine gave life to telara ! the existence of its inhabitance is a testament to the pantheons (now faltering) dominion over their creation. the defiant do not dispute this, they simply have chosen a philosophy that is self determined. the guardians still hold faith in the pantheon's motive and are fatalistic in their belief. sourcestone once again shows the properties of ether by being that which gives tangible form which embodies the essence of the conflict between the factions. all parties involved use sourcestone to give form to that which is formless

    sourcestone
    used by the gods to give form and embody all of telara
    used by the defiant to give from and embody their self-determination / tekno-magick
    used by the guardian to give form and embody the dominion of their faith / divine empowerment

    as above ... so below !
    Last edited by 13moons; 09-28-2010 at 06:53 AM. Reason: exciting endings .. come aboard.. were expecting you...

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    Defiant Maven missdoomcookie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tomoyuki View Post
    It then explains that the gods used the source stone to shape the world of Telera so one would think that the gods actually have no power of their own and they only possess the knowledge either learned or innate (pointing towards innate since there is not enough info to say that they learned it). So the only reason why they are considered gods is mainly because of the fact that they learned or already knew how to use source stone to create the world of Telera. Which would then explain why the gods does not look to kindly at the fact that the Defiant is using source stone to use the same powerful magic that the gods can wield.

    It also opens up more questions later like if the Defiant is destroying the source stone attempting the use the powers that is only the gods are allowed? I maybe misinterpreted the history but it seems clear that the gods need the source stone to take advantage of the elemental/cosmic power just like the Defiant needs them to take advantage of the same powers and that the only reason why the Defiant is disliked is because the gods feel threatened that humans can soon learn how to wield the powerful source stone.

    I thank you again for the posts and look forward to your reply's on the subject .
    Now, I am going to put on a bit of a Guardian hat right now. Sourcestone was the material component by which the gods shaped the world, yes. But consider this: the gods existed before the creation of Telara, beyond the limits of the material world, and beyond the limits of mortality, in order to be of a size and a power to create it, to oversee it, and to give life to mortals such as ourselves. No matter what the Defiants are capable of now, they have yet to come anywhere near the ability to create an entire world, and even if they could get anywhere near that power, it stands to reason they would also have the power to destroy it, and that is not a power anyone should have.

    Now, to remove that silly Guardian hat (it's pretty heavy), and put on these Defiant goggles... The very fact that we have achieved what we have achieved with sourcestone suggests that with enough of it, and with enough iteration, we could potentially reach the power of the gods to create new life or even a world. We have already replicated one of their most recent miracles -- Ascension -- and by doing so earned ourselves immortality. And yes, privately, we Defiants like to believe the gods could be running scared because they do believe we could achieve that same power and remove their yolk.

    The non-partisan point is: both potential interpretations exist within the framework of our existing lore. You have hit on one of the core, fundamental divisions between the Guardians and the Defiants.
    Lindsay Morgan Lockhart
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    Rift Chaser Tomoyuki's Avatar
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    Question

    Okay but what I am getting at is these beginning paragraphs of the lore which states they needed sourcestone:

    The gods, the source, and the planes

    "There is only sourcestone. That which does not touch sourcestone, is not. Only sourcestone shapes the shapeless, materializes the immaterial, expresses elemental energy as tangible places and things.

    At a nexus of the elemental planes, the gods found a great mass of sourcestone, which they shaped into a world and named Telara. As a blacksmith hammers steel upon an anvil, the gods shaped elemental energy against the sourcestone. They made the mountains and the seas, the teeming woods, the birds wheeling in the sky, and the death that creeps after all that is."

    Which would make you think that they only know how to use sourcestone and have no power themselves like what we would think in certain religions like Islam or Christianity. Which would also explains why they disapprove the defiants method of using sourcestone as it shows that the gods are only gods because of knowledge which soon the defiants will learn to wield usurp their position. As for you to take advantage of any power you would have to use sourcestone which is why Regualos is very interested in devouring this world as Telera contains the most compared to other worlds and why the other dragons became greedy and fought each other for control of Telera.

    I could be taking it literally but I would think it is cut and dry about the beginning.
    Also check out Trion's MMORTS game here.

    I want Rift to be released in 2012 Q3.

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    Sword of Telara Sylvrin's Avatar
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    My understanding is that sourcestone was the primal material used to create Telara. The Gods were in existence before Telara, they had power, they were immortal and who knows what they did before they created Telara (maybe this isn't even the first world they created, it's just the best) .

    What makes them Gods is their infinite wisdom and intelligence that gives them all knowledge regarding how to form and regulate a world like Telara. Even Gods, no matter how powerful they might be, cannot create something out of nothing. The word create means to form, shape, or give life to. So the Gods took the sourcestone that was in abundant supply at this nexus of all the elemental planes and from it they shaped Telara. Also drawing energies from the elemental planes to give it life, water, fire, earth, death, and air. None of those elemental energies would be feasible without the sourcestone to give the planet its shape and existence though. That is why the lore says that nothing can exist without it. That isn't to say the Gods did not have power without sourcestone, nor does it mean that there was absolutely nothing in existence in the greater cosmos without sourcestone, but rather that nothing in the material world that is Telara could exist without sourcestone. All things material were created from this primal element.

    Do the Gods fear that mortals can rival their power? I think not. I think it is much more likely that they fear what mortals will do with what little power they can control by using sourcestone to power technology. A little knowledge can be a very dangerous thing. Mortals, even if they are Ascended, do not have infinite wisdom and are subject to grave errors in judgement. Because of this the Gods may very well fear what mortals might do to damage, or destroy the world they created and have overseen for eons of time.

    Do the Defiants think they can be on equal footing with the Gods if they learn enough of how to use this primal element. Yes, I think they do, but that, in my opinion, is what makes the Defiants arrogant, stupid, and extremely dangerous. (from a Guardian perspective of course)

    This would be less of an issue for the Gods if they didn't also have the threat from the Bloodstorm. The Bloodstorm are powerfiul also, and are evil gods in their own right. What would happen if Regulos got control somehow of a mortal and deceived him somehow into doing something stupid...but wait he has already done that causing the Shade War. What if he manages to do it again, but this time convinces someone to use sourcestone in a way that could cause an even greater major cataclysmic event?

    The Gods have a lot to deal with, and while they are powerful immortal beings of infinite wisdom and knowledge, they also have to follow the laws of the universe which probably are in some way preventing them from interfering directly with saving Telara, so they need the Guardians to continue to fight both the Bloodstorm and the Defiants. The Gods are not physically manifest in the world of Telara and therefore are probably somewhere beyond the ward which keeps Telara protected. If they were to try to breach the ward that might be disastrous, so all they can currently do is use their power from beyond the ward to raise the Guardians to new life and to communicate with their Chosen through the use of sourcestone.

    This is how I understand it, if I am wrong I hope the team of Cookie and Curser will correct me.
    Last edited by Sylvrin; 09-29-2010 at 09:45 PM.
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    Ascendant Kula's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tomoyuki View Post
    Okay but what I am getting at is these beginning paragraphs of the lore which states they needed sourcestone:

    The gods, the source, and the planes

    "There is only sourcestone. That which does not touch sourcestone, is not. Only sourcestone shapes the shapeless, materializes the immaterial, expresses elemental energy as tangible places and things.

    At a nexus of the elemental planes, the gods found a great mass of sourcestone, which they shaped into a world and named Telara. As a blacksmith hammers steel upon an anvil, the gods shaped elemental energy against the sourcestone. They made the mountains and the seas, the teeming woods, the birds wheeling in the sky, and the death that creeps after all that is."

    Which would make you think that they only know how to use sourcestone and have no power themselves like what we would think in certain religions like Islam or Christianity. Which would also explains why they disapprove the defiants method of using sourcestone as it shows that the gods are only gods because of knowledge which soon the defiants will learn to wield usurp their position. As for you to take advantage of any power you would have to use sourcestone which is why Regualos is very interested in devouring this world as Telera contains the most compared to other worlds and why the other dragons became greedy and fought each other for control of Telera.

    I could be taking it literally but I would think it is cut and dry about the beginning.
    The lore doesn't state that the Gods used sourcestone to create but that they used elemental energy to shape sourcestone into the world of Telara. Sourcestone isn't fuel to the gods it is the stuff of creation. Rugulos eats sourcestone, the Defiant burn sourcestone but the Vigil and Guardians protect and cherish sourcestone because without it creation, artistry, life cannot exist.

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    Rift Chaser Tomoyuki's Avatar
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    Thank you for the reply's and to me it seems plausible for the lore and now just hope that they add more to the lore then what they have which is generalized.
    Also check out Trion's MMORTS game here.

    I want Rift to be released in 2012 Q3.

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    Quote Originally Posted by missdoomcookie View Post
    Now, to remove that silly Guardian hat (it's pretty heavy), and put on these Defiant goggles... The very fact that we have achieved what we have achieved with sourcestone suggests that with enough of it, and with enough iteration, we could potentially reach the power of the gods to create new life or even a world. We have already replicated one of their most recent miracles -- Ascension -- and by doing so earned ourselves immortality. And yes, privately, we Defiants like to believe the gods could be running scared because they do believe we could achieve that same power and remove their yolk.

    The non-partisan point is: both potential interpretations exist within the framework of our existing lore. You have hit on one of the core, fundamental divisions between the Guardians and the Defiants.
    So basically it can be summed up by the famous phrase:

    "Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic." (Clarke's Third Law)

    In the Guardian mindset the apparent magic (creation, miracles, etc) is a sign of the unchallengeable power of the dieties.

    In the Defiant mindset the apparent magic is just some application of technology that you do not yet understand but could understand some day with enough effort.

    My reading of the creation story makes it sound like the Vigil are just overglorified craftsman. I guess you can figure out which side I'm more interested in. ;)
    Last edited by Grithan; 10-17-2010 at 05:06 PM.

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