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Thread: Creation of the Ascendant

  1. #1
    Rift Disciple RiftLlama's Avatar
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    Default Creation of the Ascendant

    Okay..so trying to get a grasp on when exactly the Ascendant were created. At first I thought this happened during the Blood Storm War. But then noted that was centuries from the current events or near current events. Then I read in the official lore that it appears most of the Ascendant came from the Shade War. Which according to lore is 8 years prior to game start (I believe i read this on the official lore areas of the site). However Asha, one of the Ascendant seems to have become Ascended before the Shade War began. It is also mentioned that this is decades before our current time. So if the Ascendant come from the Shade War and it was about 8 years previous, is Asha simply special? Why would she be?: Her mentor told her she was the first of many he was pulling from the Defiant machines. So she became the leader, but it leaves the impression she was not the only one, only the first. So if there were more decades before the Shade War, is it that the Ascendant are from a span of Telaran history? Asha came before the Shade War and joined the Dragon Covenant to fight against the Dragon Cults. So were the cults a big deal before the Shade War? So sometime after the Blood Storm War and then during/after the Shade War the Ascendant were created?

    What is your take? I know we don't have full details, but working on some RP stories and want to get "closeish".

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    Telaran Z7ack's Avatar
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    I have no clue. Do the reborn Defiant even count as Ascendants? I thought in order to be an Ascendant, one must be resurrected by the Gods. I'm lost now.

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    There is also the time travel thing, which I don't exactly get...

    So the Defiant Ascendant were created after the Telara was destroyed (or during the destruction anyway), and then were sent in the past to deal with the invasion and prevent the said destruction. Which begs the question why weren't they sent in before the Shade War to prevent the Shade and Ward damage alltogether, rather than directly counter the seemingly unstoppable forces of nature...

    The Guardians... I don't get at all. I heard they're from the past or something, yet they share the same Shadowlands starting zone with the Defiant?

  4. #4
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    I think it was mentioned somewhere that the Guardians don't start in the same starter area the Defiant do. I guess it could turn out to be the Shadowlands (not sure if anything specific has been said about the Guardian starter area itself yet?) but I suppose in that case it would be the Shadowlands in the present not the future (so no Telera being torn apart in the sky).

    I may have misinterpreted it but I think what was meant by the Guardians coming from the past is them being souls of fighters, handpicked by the Vigil, from throughout Telera's history resurrected for the gods' little army. Not that the Guardians themselves engage in time travel like the Defiant.

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    Alright. So Guardians are ancient heroes of the past that get ressurected in the present and Defiant are just random people that died during the final hours of Teleara fighting the Death God's forces, who then got ressurected in the future, empowered and then sent to the present.

  6. #6
    Defiant Maven missdoomcookie's Avatar
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    Guardian Ascended were resurrected the day that Aedraxis Mathos broke the Ward, the day the rifts came. The Vigil resurrected them on the battlefield from among the fallen in order to stop Aedraxis from fully destroying the Ward and bringing Regulos through. After they stopped Aedraxis, they were taken up to the Vigil to receive holy prophecy regarding the forestalling of the end.

    Defiant Ascended are resurrected by machines on the last day of Telara. The Defiants, having no Ascended in the original timeline (except Asha Catari, but she was only powerful because of the power she took from Regulos), were defeated by the Guardians and retreated into their workshops to work on making their own Ascended. Once they discovered the means, they then scanned the Soulstream and netted those who seemed strong enough to survive the process. These individuals could have come from any point in history. They are then sent back to join in the fight by way of Orphiel's Falsafe device. Think of this device as a temporal anchor. You can't use it to go back and forth, just to that one moment in time that the machine was rooted.

    Why you might have heard reference to souls from the Age of Dragons is this: the souls that players "equip" for their different abilities are the souls of heroes from the Age of Dragons, the original Pyromancer, the original Paladin, etc. Consider the Ascended a vessel, and these souls as ways they expand their powers.
    Last edited by missdoomcookie; 10-28-2010 at 04:28 PM.
    Lindsay Morgan Lockhart
    Lore Lead - Defiants
    Trion Worlds, Inc
    "I learned at a very young age that the world is full of people who are terrified by knowledge and the power it bestows to the individual. Freedom is to be seized by those with the courage to think for themselves." - Asha Catari

    http://www.twitter.com/missdoomcookie

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    Thanks, that clears things up for me a bit.

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    Rift Disciple RiftLlama's Avatar
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    Well....glad it clears it up for someone and thanks for replying Missdoomcookie, but this only really raises more questions than it answers. No offense, I'm sure someone there has this all in an order that you guys can see and I realize you guys are teasing us with the lore here and there as reveals which is your right to do, it is your story, but well as an RPer, the lore is one of the single most important aspects for me to getting into the game, to developing a character that makes sense and doesn't seem out of sync with the world I'm in. I want to craft stories too, with my character, not only for me to enjoy, but those around me that choose to hang out with me. So that said..going to ask more questions and hope that you are any lore team member helps clear things up.

    Before I typed this I spoke with my guildmates who are also eager for more lore info. They saw this much the same way I did and that was important because I wanted to make sure I wasn't just missing anything. Please understand this isn't a flame, I simply want a better lore understanding.

    Missdoomcookie, you brought up some points here that have been mentioned briefly in other areas and I listened to the podcast between you and the Guardian lore dev (sorry forgot the name)...also the one with I think Scott that spoke of the future Defiant, etc. So here's a few things that just don't make sense and a couple concerns where the Guardian are concerned and how they are being portrayed so far. My group planned on going Guardian, but so far the lore has not made them very appealing unless you like playing the zealot. Being a zealot can be fun RP, but an entire faction like this? Just seems one dimensional and stale..will hit that a bit later though.

    So first. You said the Guardian Ascended were resurrected during the battle with Aedrexis to stop Regulos from fully coming through the Ward. They fought the battle and then were taken up to the Vigil to get some "holy revelation". This seems inconsistent with lore you have elsewhere on the site. The Boar Spear story for instance. Though I haven't read pt 2 yet, the first part shows a Guardian Ascended who was clearly not killed at the battle with Aedrexis. He was killed by a wife protecting her husband. He may or may not have received a vision, but he clearly was presented with his poor life choices and given a chance to atone. At least that is his take on it in the story. Can't really say what time frame it was during, but he was dead nearly a century he said. So that is inconsistent with all Guardian dead being taken from that one battle. It also doesn't seem fitting to the idea that the Guardians are simply the best of the best at whatever they did, good or bad, in their lives. So all the best of Telara were at this battle? That seems..convenient. Also, groups like assassins, etc...why would they be at a full fledged battle? Doesn't make sense based on what an assassin does. Again, looking at the Boar Spear this wouldn't have been the case for all Guardian Ascended. It also just doesn't make a lot of sense...for all Guardian Ascended to come from this one battle. Why would the Vigil not pull the best and brightest who had ever lived? I can certainly understand they might have resurrected or ascended folks in that battle to have bodies readily available to stop Regulos, but just not that all Ascended come from this battle. Can you gives us more on this or at least help us understand what seem to be inconsistencies?

    Also the Guardian as a whole...they just seem....meh. At first I thought, based on what we had seen that they were a fairly complex faction with varying reasons for doing what they did, from atonement for past sins, to zealousness towards the Vigil, to perhaps reasons we could make up such as their using sourcestone in a way that could be destructive (not just because the Guardians consider it holy as it allows this to contact the Vigil). From the podcasts, to the recent Eth lore, to even comments on the forums, it makes the Guardians sound simply like a bunch of zealots who hate tech and progress simply for the sake of hating it. Perhaps it, in their belief, detracts from the Vigil or some such, but again that's all very..one dimensional and not very appealing to play a faction with so little to it. I mean the Defiant have the cause of Freedom, science, progress, even a spiritual aspect isn't frowned on, but not their total make up. They simply seem more fleshed out and more well rounded. The Guardians could have many reason to be against the Defiant tech that has nothing to do with the religious aspect. Or at least not totally due to that aspect. Not all religious people are against science, most are simply against the worship of science which is a man made endeavor. Many in the religious communities of the world are scientists and believe in the many benefits it can bring to everyone. So do the Guardians really swear of all tech, only tech that uses sourcestone and can those reasons for their dislike of burning sourcestone be varied? Do the Guardians consume sourcestone when using it to talk to the Vigil? And thus they need a supply of it due to this? The Guardians just need more in the way or lore to make them a group that doesn't seem so one dimensional and bleh.

    Don't get me wrong, I don't mind the zealous aspect, or the religious. In Telara we KNOW the Vigil exists. So having this side of it can be fun for RP, but it simply shouldn't be the only aspect. Someone else mentioned. The sourcestone is the stuff of Creation. To destroy it could very well mean the destruction of the world in the eyes of some. This makes another good Guardian motivation that isn't simply rooted in we hate science, knowledge, and progress. Make the Guardians as well rounded as the Defiant, with various motives and concerns...not just the Vigil focus.

    Okay..going to cover the Defiant portion in my next post so this isn't too awfully long.

  9. #9
    Rift Disciple Aieru's Avatar
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    Not really for me.
    Please understand, this is not a flame nor am I trying to sound sarcastic or whatever. I'm just a tad frustrated and a lot confused.
    So Please take my comments in that vein.

    Are you saying that ALL Guardian Ascendants were chosen from the battlefield of that one, singular battle in that one singular place where Aedraxis was calling upon Regulos? As in... Cyril is killed and immediately rises right back up to combat Aedraxis- then he and the rest of the 'newly dead, now Ascended' poofed into the 'hereafter' to get that dark prophesy of Telara's destruction...
    Then back to Telara they go?

    Are you saying... that the ONLY Ascended the Vigil chose were people from that specific battle?
    If so... explain to me how The Boar Spear was chosen... doesn't seem as if he was in the battle at all against Aedraxis. Yet he is Guardian Ascendant.

    Frankly this is confusing to me. Are we talking alternate timelines and parallel universes that warp the timeline to introduce a 'new and improved' Defiant group- one that is just as Ascended as the Guardians, so won't be so easy to beat?
    Are you saying the Guardians were responsible for Telara's destruction?

    Not only is this becoming more confusing, the lack of any Guardian info (that is not filtered through Defiant eyes/lore) is frustrating. If the Guardians are so ineffectual and 'bad'... why would any player be interested in playing them? They seem VERY 2-D at the moment... not fully fleshed out or even... interesting...

    Right now, it seems the Guardians are all judgmental, narrow-minded,technophobic, radical zealots w/o any common sense to guide them in the defense of Telara- but instead, just blind, religious automatons. No rhyme or reason to their beliefs, just mindless 'tools' of the Vigil. There must be a logic and reasoning behind their beliefs.

    Please. Please. PLEASE.
    Post some lore and information about the Guardians. Who they are, why they believe as they do, and some lore that doesn't seem convoluted and self-contradictory. The lore being released (while very good and very appreciated) is also VERY one-sided.

    Thanks.

    Edit: Noticed Llama posted while I was working on this post.. and pretty much said the same thing. Glad to know I'm not alone in my confusion!
    Last edited by Aieru; 10-29-2010 at 08:51 AM.

  10. #10
    Rift Disciple RiftLlama's Avatar
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    On to the Defiant bit. Told you this brought up more concerns than it answered. Okay..so the Defiant are from the future where they've seen the end of Telara. However you also say in there that the Guardians had beaten the Defiant and in a last ditch effort to survive (it seems), they created the machines to create their own ascended and another machine to send them back in time to the game time. So this could mean many things. The Guardians defeat of the Defiant cause something to end the world? Or did the Defiant have a hand in it, but the Guardians defeated them too late? I mean the Defiant see the end of the world and see that their defeat allows it to happen, so they send the Defiant back to stop it? As another poster said, not a very attractive reason to join the Guardians. I mean the Defiant know what happened. Why were the Guardians destroying the Defiant while they watched the world ending around them? What about Defiant tech beyond the sourcestone issue, makes them hate it so much. Is the revelation they receive showing them how the Eth tech finally had a hand in destroying the world in the future? Again this speaks to a Guardian faction so zealous to destroy the Defiant that they'd watch Telara be destroyed to do it. Just doesn't make sense. Everyone in this faction of thousands simply ignored what they were seeing? Even if every mortal saw this and ignored it, why would the Vigil ignore it. They don't want Telara to be destroyed. Wouldn't they give different marching orders?

    Also, to the Defiant machines. Why did they wait until the "last days of Telara" to build their soul pulling machines? I mean Orphiel had one before all of this right? He pulled Asha out and you said she was the only Defiant ascendant during the time of the Guardian Ascendants. That the fact that the Defiant only had one Ascended is why they lost. But they had this tech to pull more souls and Orphiel was planning on pulling out more than her. She was powerful because of the power she took from Regulos, but why would he have stopped at only pulling her out and then wait until they were defeated to pull any others out? Or am I mistaken in my understanding of when she herself was pulled out? I mean she came back it seems after the Shade War and worked for a time at least with the Guardians at Port Scion or whatever right? Just seems like a bit of an inconsistency. The going back in time machine...the temporal rift opener. Why did he not open up a time before the Shade War and stop Aedrexis from even breaching the Ward? Or is it simply that he couldn't? He could only go back so far? That would make sense at least.

    Also the Defiant can pull people from any time in history, but why would the Vigil not do the same? If they are going for Telara's heroes and the cream of the crop, they would do this also.

    Please understand that is an attempt to understand this lore better and help my guildmates and those interested understand it better as well. There SEEM to be inconsistencies and some convoluted bits. The Defiant seem to be "more" all around than the Guardians and it's not surprise to me that most people want to join them. They have more varied reasons for what they are doing and though it seems like they are being made to look like they are the science is everything and almost worship it, they don't come off that way...especially with the Kelari and their connection to the spirits. I mentioned the Guardians above, but they at this point seem one dimensional and on top that the idea that the Defiant have seen the end and know what happens...makes it seem the Guardians are just blind and refuse to listen to any other truth or even consider it. I can certainly see part of the faction doing this, but not all of it. Someone mentioned the butterfly affect. The Defiants went back in time and have basically changed what was because they've changed the past. Sorta a normal temporal device used in many stories. Okay. This time they have more Ascended and can fight the Guardians...but it doesn't change the fact that the Guardian goal (which hasn't changed) caused the destruction of the world..unless again as someone pointed out this was propaganda and it was something on their own side that needed to be changed, but the Guardians defeating them stopped that. Perhaps the "revelation" of what happened also shows us more about the Guardian motivations that seem more well rounded and less anti-knowledge and growth, etc.

    Anyway, this is long enough. Again...just wanting to discuss and get more from the source, get more views as that always seems to help. I guess there is another thread on this topic and there were some pretty good answers there, but figured I'd post where the dev has showed up and hope for more cookies from missdoomcookie.... Or any lore dev really. Thanks.

    EDIT: Heh noticed Aieru posted just before I did this. So we have some duel questions, but then it seems many people have these same questions...
    Last edited by RiftLlama; 10-29-2010 at 09:10 AM.

  11. #11
    Plane Touched Samil's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by missdoomcookie View Post
    Guardian Ascended were resurrected the day that Aedraxis Mathos broke the Ward
    Just a quick reply. This seems to contradict the official page on the Defiant, which appears to suggest that the Guadian's first Ascended arrived after the Shade War, when both Zareph and Orphiel were at Port Scion.

    Edit: ok I suspect they'll be retconning the lore pages quite a bit. The new information on Defiant time travel contradicts far too much existing lore.
    Last edited by Samil; 10-29-2010 at 06:03 PM.

    Started with EQ, and currently helping out on the Telarapedia while waiting for Rift!

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    Soulwalker kuulin's Avatar
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    excellent questions... and ones many of us have been discussing. Here's hoping we can get some helpful input from the devs soon.

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    RIFT Fan Site Operator Delith's Avatar
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    I'm also wondering:

    If they are being resurrected, it sounds more like their soul/conscious is than their actual bodies. Because for the defiants at least, you're talking about old, rotten corpses. Is the magic/magitech that restorative? Or are they built anew/planted in willing vessels?

    As far as the Defiant being brought back is concerned, it sounds to me as though they've seen one possible end, but that the foretelling is not always correct or accurate. It's simply affecting how they act because they want to avoid that particular outcome of events.

    Very assumptuous on my part, but that sounds the most plausible to me.

  14. #14
    Plane Walker Taldier's Avatar
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    My problem with time travel as a plot device isnt so much "they saw the future" or "there may be lore contradictions here", though of course these are problamatic.... but more along the lines of "omg they traveled through time wtf".

    If you can build/find/etc a time machine once...whats to stop you from doing it again...and again...and again...and...again...

    Whats the point of trying to "save the world" if the defiants can just keep playing "groundhog day" with the universe until they finally get it right?

    How do we even know this is the first loop?! We could have already seen the brink of the oncoming apocalypse a few dozen times only for the defiants to jump back through a time portal and hit the reset button...and the game isnt even out yet.

    "Augggghhhh the pain....head is exploding with absurd temporal paradox"
    - Lord Taldier


    A casual stroll through the lunatic asylum shows that faith does not prove anything.
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  15. #15
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    oncoming apocalypse a few dozen times only for the defiants to jump back through a time portal and hit the reset button
    Yes, that thing with time being, theoretically, an unlimited amound of combinations of reality that all exist in every single moment in the time line, at the same time. Meaning the end of Telara DID happen and that future continued for those who didn't jump into the time machine.

    If the time was one continuous line of events that could be interrupted, twisted and reset, the chaning of the past would lead to the, supposedly, desired change in the future which would lead to the absense of reason of travelling in the past in the first place, which in itself means the future wasn't changed and the reason for travelling was not eliminated and...

    Well, this thing is just as complicated as Rift's lore. We should just take what the lore gives us for granted and not to dissect it too much.

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