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Thread: religious undertones with gardions "WHY"

  1. #31
    Ascendant Maeloda's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by brennamarie View Post
    As Nestran said above me, both sides are religious, look at Kelari on the Defiant side. In any fantasy world, there is religious undertones with certain races, and people it's just part of life.
    Like I was just saying on my last post, the Kelari and Bahmi do have religions, but that doesn't mean their society is currently 'religious' as a rule.

    Defiants worship self-determination, generally, by now. They have rifts when it comes to religion, but religion doesn't unify them in the least, compared to the Guardians being quite unified through their *organized faith*.

  2. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hartzekar View Post
    A truly neutral side would really be considered fantasy. Cause it sure as heck doesn't exist outside.

    And to OP, you are asking why in a video game taking place in a fantasy world there is a faction who works for gods who have been proven to exist by the lore. If you really have that much against any mention of a higher being, go play a shooter game.
    Neutral = Tempest Bay

    They both recognize the Vigil and advance forms of magitech. They're fanatical about neither, and just focused on retaining whatever ground against the Storm Legion, Death influence, and other planar presence.

    Any other 'neutral' faction are just ineffectual without more dedicated/fanatical protection: Arcane Hand, Dragonslayer Covenant, Runeguard, etc.

    They may be focused on the bigger threat, but they haven't grown into a large enough presence to make up for their lost numbers fallen from combat. Thus, they need the more overt and forthright (in recruitment) Guardians and Defiants to assist them.

    And heck, now the Tempest Bay factions require their help to stop Crucia and Regulos :P


    The fundamentalists are crazy dangerous, but in a world like Telara, they also GET THINGS DONE.

  3. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kaedan View Post
    It goes WELL beyond "undertones". It's pretty much a core part of the Guardian faction. The Vigil are the ones responsible for creating the Guardian Ascended, afterall.

    But there is a major difference between Rift religion and real life. In Rift, there is no question as to the existence of the Vigil. It's a well known fact they exist. That in itself breaks the entire concept of religion as it applies to real life and eliminates the primary source of argument.

    Defiants are not Atheist. They are well aware of the Vigil. They just think the Vigil did a ****-tastic job, so took things into their own hands.
    Quote Originally Posted by Regnek View Post
    No, Defiants split because they were told not to use Sourcestone in their tech and they couldn't help themselves/didn't want to have obstacles in the way of their research and achievements.
    That's the same thing...

    Magitech imprisoned dragons... while the Vigil faltered.

  4. #34
    RIFT Community Ambassador the_real_seebs's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maeloda View Post
    Nah.

    Defiants are spiritual, and only sometimes.

    Eth do have ceremonies but are generally non-theist.
    I don't think it makes sense to call them non-theist. They do not dispute that the Vigil exist, and are gods, they just don't take orders from them.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maeloda View Post
    That's the same thing...

    Magitech imprisoned dragons... while the Vigil faltered.
    Not sure if I agree with that. I admit Im behind on my lore for Rift but Greenscale at least wasnt sealed with magitech.

    Storm Legion is going to be interesting for both factions, though probably more for the Guardians than the ascended. The magitech of Brevane doesnt run on Sourcestone but sources power directly from the plains. Technically this isnt against the Vigil's orders. So what does this mean for the Guardians and their stance towards said tech?

    I think both factions are going to undergo a bit of change. The Guardians are going to have to deal with a pretty big shift in understanding and perception. The ward is coming down by the sound of it. Its only a matter of time. This new magitech will become alot more common as it comes back on line. How the Guardians relate the gods to this new world and their personal place in it will be interesting.

    The Defiants are going to be faced with Magitech that frankly makes much of the Eth empire look primative. Its a case of both advancement and hubris related to magitech that we have ever seen. This tech is what brought the Bloodstorm to Telara. I think the Defiants will leap in head first but the question Im wondering is if they will face the issues on if there is such a thing as too far.

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    Quote Originally Posted by the_real_seebs View Post
    I don't think it makes sense to call them non-theist. They do not dispute that the Vigil exist, and are gods, they just don't take orders from them.
    imo partially true.

    They don't really see the Vigil as real 'gods' though, but just like any other powerful being. They certainly don't see them worthy of worship.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lutinz View Post
    Not sure if I agree with that. I admit Im behind on my lore for Rift but Greenscale at least wasnt sealed with magitech.

    Storm Legion is going to be interesting for both factions, though probably more for the Guardians than the ascended. The magitech of Brevane doesnt run on Sourcestone but sources power directly from the plains. Technically this isnt against the Vigil's orders. So what does this mean for the Guardians and their stance towards said tech?

    I think both factions are going to undergo a bit of change. The Guardians are going to have to deal with a pretty big shift in understanding and perception. The ward is coming down by the sound of it. Its only a matter of time. This new magitech will become alot more common as it comes back on line. How the Guardians relate the gods to this new world and their personal place in it will be interesting.

    The Defiants are going to be faced with Magitech that frankly makes much of the Eth empire look primative. Its a case of both advancement and hubris related to magitech that we have ever seen. This tech is what brought the Bloodstorm to Telara. I think the Defiants will leap in head first but the question Im wondering is if they will face the issues on if there is such a thing as too far.
    The fight may have been occasionally won without magitech, but the *advance* of the mortals against the dragons would not have happened without it.

    Guardians will probably take a more soft, 'we can enlighten them' approach. The Guardians and Defiants on Tempest Bay both seem to take that approach, in fact.

    And as far as I can tell, Empyrian tech is more reliably impressive, but Magitech is still the power of *creation*. It will still have a major role and I think the Defiants will refuse to stop using it. While Empyrian tech may open up to entrance/manipulation towards the Planes, Magitech is what allowed the Defiants to create Ascended in Terminus!

    TLDR; The factions are in a more soft truce due to larger conflicts, but imo they won't be happy with each other any time soon.

  8. #38
    RIFT Community Ambassador Morvick's Avatar
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    It shouldn't even be in the discussion of "belief". There's solid proof the Vigil Gods exist, so there can really be no "atheist" or "agnostic" characters in Rift. Those terms address whether you believe something or not, and anyone on Telara who doesn't believe the Gods exist is, at this point, a fool.

    What is contested, and is the whole point of the [devalued] faction divide, was whether or not you cooperate with the Vigil. The Guardians say "Yes, the Vigil are powerful and worthy of allying with". The Defiant say "No, the Vigil aren't worth listening to because they haven't proven their value".

    There's no disputing how Telara was made: The Gods shaped it around the Nexus, in a way that only the God Engines can begin to recreate (and the Infinity Gate seems to replicate the Messengers' innate power, to march across realities freely). There's no denying that the Vigil constructed the Ward with the help of mortals (who can then strengthen it, such as at Port Scion).

    The only thing being disputed is whether or not these feats are worth appreciating. That's the core of the dispute between Guardians and Defiants. Neither is fully right, neither is fully wrong.
    Last edited by Morvick; 10-21-2012 at 12:18 PM.
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  9. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tolmos View Post
    Well, I dunna about you, but if some voluptuous Valkyrie looking lady came down from the heavens, resurrected me after my brutal death on a battlefield against an undead swarm, gave me super powers and told me this was all the workings of some group of gods called the vigil? I'd be pretty darned religious myself, I do believe.
    You missed the point where they actually say "you need to fall on your sword so we can make you ascended." Or in a less friendly tone "we are going to let you die." There is that little scene where you are asked by one of the messengers if you are prepared for your death before you go to the final battle.

    Yeah that's cheerfull
    Far better is it to dare mighty things, to win glorius triumphs, even though checkered by failure... than to rank with those poor spirits who neither enjoy nor suffer much, because they live in a gray twilight that knows not victory nor defeat.

  10. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by Morvick View Post
    It shouldn't even be in the discussion of "belief". There's solid proof the Vigil Gods exist, so there can really be no "atheist" or "agnostic" characters in Rift.
    Faith is a factor though. Not in the existance of the gods but in terms of whether you "need" them. This is ultimately where the divide lay. The Guardians say...

    We are as children to the Vigil and as any child we need our parents to nurture and protect us.
    The Defiant say...

    We are the children of the gods, but we have grown. As any child when they mature they strike out on their own and no longer need their parents to nuture and protect them. Our fate is now our own.
    So you have one side that has a belief or faith in their need of the Vigil and the other who does not have such belief.
    Far better is it to dare mighty things, to win glorius triumphs, even though checkered by failure... than to rank with those poor spirits who neither enjoy nor suffer much, because they live in a gray twilight that knows not victory nor defeat.

  11. #41
    Prophet of Telara Neo Omni's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cyberspider View Post
    why is there so much religious undertones with Gard's seems to be praise this and that worship this and that

    is this not abit like zombies been done to much allot of chat iv seen in game has been very anti Gard due in part to the religious undertones.

    what was the thinking behind going down that road

    Because Guardians are a religious group.
    That's like asking, why are there so many spaceships in Star Wars?


  12. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lightwell View Post
    I'm not sure you can really call the Guardians religious, since the whole point of religion is believing in something for which you have no proof, i.e. having faith.

    The Guardians god, the Vigil, sends messengers down on a daily basis, so there really is no need for faith. They know their god exists!
    I'm a little late on responding to this post, but I want to anyway. For the guardians I'm not sure if this is the appropriate way to interpret faith. Like you said, they know their gods exist, so they don't need to have faith in the normal sense.

    It's more that they have faith that the gods will help them and through that help with telarans actually be able to defeat the blood storm. That's really what's up in the air. Can we defeat the blood storm. Well guardians have faith that the vigil will lead them to victory.

  13. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by Albrech View Post
    I'm a little late on responding to this post, but I want to anyway. For the guardians I'm not sure if this is the appropriate way to interpret faith. Like you said, they know their gods exist, so they don't need to have faith in the normal sense.

    It's more that they have faith that the gods will help them and through that help with telarans actually be able to defeat the blood storm. That's really what's up in the air. Can we defeat the blood storm. Well guardians have faith that the vigil will lead them to victory.
    I think its stronger than that. They believe that following the Vigil is the ONLY path to victory, at least the leadership.
    Far better is it to dare mighty things, to win glorius triumphs, even though checkered by failure... than to rank with those poor spirits who neither enjoy nor suffer much, because they live in a gray twilight that knows not victory nor defeat.

  14. #44
    Rift Chaser Sergeantkeys's Avatar
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    I enjoy being a religious fanatic.

    Hell it makes the game even more fun to me.

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  15. #45
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    What I love is that neither side is "good" or "evil." In Warhammer it was easy to like my Warrior priest. Giant ffing hammer, armor that says "thou shalt not suffer a witch to live" especially when the bad guys were definitely bad.

    Here it's far more complicated.
    Far better is it to dare mighty things, to win glorius triumphs, even though checkered by failure... than to rank with those poor spirits who neither enjoy nor suffer much, because they live in a gray twilight that knows not victory nor defeat.

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