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Thread: Can't enjoy the Defiant lore, anyone else with me?

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    Default Can't enjoy the Defiant lore, anyone else with me?

    I want to like the Defiant, I really do. The whole "use magic as technology" thing is pretty awesome and since I'm a software developer in real life it seems a natural fit. I've actually leveled one to 50. But I can't bring myself to sympathize with the faction one bit, because they resort to torture (at least one quest you capture a Guardian footman and torture him for information, and rather than let you torture him to death he prays to the Vigil to die), and worst of all is HOW they became Ascended. When I leveled I skipped watching what happens in the life facility in the Defiant starter area, and then one day I decided to roll an alt and look at what unfolds, and to be honest it made me sick to my stomach; I instantly deleted said alt, rolled Guardian and never looked back.

    They not only murder POWs, but they steal their souls, preventing them from resting in peace after death. Even as said POWs beg for mercy (there's that book saying how Sylver experimented on some poor guy and "drowned out his screams" by thinking of how cool his creation would be), even as their ghosts wonder why they haven't moved on (one even says "I felt myself die, why haven't I moved on?"). That's worse than evil; murdering innocents is evil enough, but binding their souls like a puppet? That's as bad as anything the dragon cults do; in fact I don't recall any cults outside of the Endless Court resorting to such vile measures - mass murder sure, but besides Regulos raising the dead, those people found eternal rest after they died.

    I can't bring myself to play a Defiant, even though as a whole I find the faction a lot cooler than the Guardians, simply because almost everything outside of the Defiant starter area indicates that everything that befell Telara is due to Orphiel and co. playing around with their technology while the Guardians tried to put things right and ended up not only obliterated by the dragons, but having their surviving Ascended tortured and murdered for their powers.

    Anyone else feel this way? I know that Defiant are the "cool" faction because they aren't traditional fantasy like the Guardians, but even in WoW while the Horde are made out to be the bad guys often, they have redeeming qualities - but in your starting area watching your guys enslave spirits, even in the name of saving the world is downright deplorable.
    Last edited by wayne62682; 05-14-2012 at 01:35 PM.

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    I wonder where you think all the souls the vigil stuffs you full of come from.


    Like you said in the defiant starting area it's the end of the world it is the absolute last option to save Telara after the guardians sack meridian kill most of the defiants, destroy all the machines and fail to save Telara from regulos.

    on both sides of the war guardians and defiants do some pretty awful stuff and neither side is better of more good than the other, they have different idealogies

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    It's funny because I can't connect with the Guardians at all. I'm leveling a Guardian alt and it's like torture doing the quests, I just don't care at all about them.

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    RIFT Community Ambassador Maelystra's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wayne62682 View Post
    I want to like the Defiant, I really do. The whole "use magic as technology" thing is pretty awesome. <> But I can't bring myself to sympathize with the faction one bit, because they resort to torture <>, and worst of all is HOW they became Ascended. When I leveled I skipped watching what happens in the life facility in the Defiant starter area, and then one day I decided to roll an alt and look at what unfolds, and to be honest it made me sick to my stomach; I instantly deleted said alt, rolled Guardian and never looked back.

    They not only murder POWs, but they steal their souls, preventing them from resting in peace after death. Even as said POWs beg for mercy <> That's worse than evil; murdering innocents is evil enough, but binding their souls like a puppet? That's as bad as anything the dragon cults do; in fact I don't recall any cults outside of the Endless Court resorting to such vile measures...
    1. How could you have watched what goes on in the life factory and not actually have understood a darned thing is beyond me.
    First of all, the 'PoWs' are ascended guardian assassins, bent on destroying the last few remaining Defiants on the planet. Why would we grant mercy to people who are trying to kill us?

    Nevermind the fact that it's the last few hours of the planet's existence and Terminus is all that remains of the planet. The Guardians in Terminus are 100% insane fanatics. They don't even care about the fact that the Endless Court are also there in force, trying to seize the life factory...they aren't fighting THEM at all.

    What, have the Guardians of the future all sold their souls to Regulos?
    Sure looks like it...
    In fact, we have Brother Jebiah, Frederic Kain and Alaric all spewing stuff about 'Come Defiants, give yourselves to Regulos and be redeemed...'

    Yeah ok...like I'm having any sympathy for those lunatics! For crying out loud even Shyla Starhearth is labeled the Herald of Regulos there and you don't see them trying to get her body back from us, now do you?!


    2. The souls of the PoWs are NOT being placed into Defiant Ascended! Their souls are being injected into that DEAD Defiant guard who is lying in that machine. To see how many souls could possibly be used by one person.


    The souls which are being yanked out of the Soulstream by the Soulsstream Analyzer machine on the other side of the facility, are the ones being used to animate the Defiant Ascended. Hell's Bells our bodies are not even made of flesh and blood, man. We are created from raw source stone and the souls are placed into that somehow.


    As for quests in which Defiants torture Guardians, you obviously didn't look too closely at what was going on in the cages in the Guardian fanatics encampment, eh? Right there in the start zone.


    3. You may not have heard of other 'cults' who enslaves spirits/souls, but the Golden Maw also do it (Scarlet Gorge) and it seems to me I recall the downfall of Hammerknell had everything to do with some very angry souls finally escaping the constructs they'd been bound to by the dwarven Runebinders...


    And finally this:
    I can't bring myself to play a Defiant, <> simply because almost everything outside of the Defiant starter area indicates that everything that befell Telara is due to Orphiel and co. playing around with their technology while the Guardians tried to put things right and ended up not only obliterated by the dragons, but having their surviving Ascended tortured and murdered for their powers.
    Have you even read the story of how MATHOSIAN King Aedraxxis, conned Orphiel into making him war machines to defeat his own brother, Zareph, with the promise of allowing Orphiel to invent peacetime machines after the war?
    It was Aedraxxis who cracked the ward and started this entire mess. It was Alsbeth, another Mathosian, who betrayed her own kind and opened the rift which destroyed Port Scion. And we won't even touch on all the other defections from the races which eventually formed together as the Guardians.

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    Ascendant Maeloda's Avatar
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    Basically everything said above. Ha.

    And OP, I love the Guardians. I do. I leveled my first 50 on Guardian side, and enjoy them, Sanctum, and most of their exclusive stories.

    But they're not what you think they are.

    Think of it this way (philosophically):
    -Defiants have fallen, and are climbing upwards.
    -Guardians stand up high in the clouds, but when they fall, they do so in astounding fashion.

    Most of the Eth are even a far cry from their ancestors. In fact, the whole deal with the Defiant is that the techno-progressives within them are moving forward, often beyond their own traditionalists (Rahn, Mona, etc). They intend to learn the lesson of the past, which comes with its own 'bumps', and create a new future for the Eth, Bahmi, Kelari, and any others willing to work with them (Freemarch Wardens, for example).

    Terminus? Um.. the place is the end of the world. The Guardians now worship Regulos, having fallen years ago. They crossed the bridge into Meridian, sacked it and killed many Defiants, and they were seemingly distracted by that while Alsbeth opened up the River of Souls and Telara to Regulos himself - who probably headed directly for Sanctum with the undead armies of:
    -Freemarch
    -Gloamwood
    -Scarlet Gorge
    -Scarwood Reach
    -Stillmoor
    All because the Guardians decided that bashing up some magitech machines (remember, magitech ALSO protected Port Scion for years and fought imprisoned the Blood Storm originally) was more important than safeguarding their lands and investigating any more plots by the Endless Court.

    And that's the thing. The Guardians do fantastic, fantastic things!...when prodded to do so. Otherwise, they just wish to be in their lands, doing their thing.
    The Defiants seek out the trouble. This is often a bad thing, opening up things like the Titan Gate in Stonefield, and the Life Rift in Scarwood... but it is often exactly - and I have to stress this.. - *EXACTLY* what Telara needs in order to not be swallowed up by the planes. While the Guardians safeguard Telaran lands, the Defiants discover things that the Guardians never would, and stop those that never would have even been detected by the Guardians.


    And a Defiant Ascended isn't even related to the Guardian prisoners on Terminus. This is what you are:
    -sourcestone (like with the Guardians)
    -dead soul of a Kelari, Eth, or Bahmi, from pre-Terminus time (or likely pre-Port Scion or Shade time)
    -several atteunments to souls of those from the Blood Storm Wars

    Nothing about a Guardian there.

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    Last bit here:

    All of the known civilizations on Telara have been lost.

    The Mathosians fell to Regulos, but there was some victory thanks to the Vigil and their Ascended. The Dwarves fell to Regulos and (imo) Akylios' power, but we somewhat redeem them by reclaiming Hammerknell. The High Elves fell to the fae and Greenscale's temping power, but there is still hope yet.

    The Eth fell to the Golden Maw, and in a final blow, to Wanton sabotage, but they find purpose and freedom in their discoveries in magitech and Ascension. The Kelari fell to the Wanton and loss of their spiritual pacts (thanks to both Regulos and Akylios, in their ways), but they find purpose in taking back their territory and saving the spirits that used to help them so much. The Bahmi's tribal lands fell to... something, but they find their hospitality towards the Eth is now being repaid, as they move into the future with them.

    (Sidenote: I find it interesting how it may be that the Guardians already have purpose, but are constantly seeking redemption, while the Defiants have less care for redemption, but constantly discover their purpose.)

    But this isn't exactly how it happened. These are the figures that really ruined things.

    Mathosia - Greedy king (Mathosian)
    Dwarves - Dwarven king embracing runebinding of *deathly demonic beings* (Dwaves)
    High Elves - Their own prince being corrupted by the fae (Elves)
    Eth - The Sorcerer Kings... possibly being corrupted by the Maw (Eth)
    Bahmi - Rahn's actions lead to many dying, somehow (Bahmi)
    Kelari - Actually, not the Kelari. Everything was brought on by Akylios wrecking the land with waves and madness, and Akylios was caused by Regulos, which was caused by Aedraxis. (Mathosian)

    Specific people in their factions, BOTH of them, have ruined their peoples. This is a fallen world, and don't let Sanctum's pretty view tell you otherwise. They simply have different methods of fixing their situations.

    "Anyone else feel this way? I know that Defiant are the "cool" faction because they aren't traditional fantasy like the Guardians, but even in WoW while the Horde are made out to be the bad guys often, they have redeeming qualities - but in your starting area watching your guys enslave spirits, even in the name of saving the world is downright deplorable."
    This part is funny because you don't seem to get that:
    -the Eth respect spirits, in themselves (but don't tend to worship or revere them like Guardians tend to)
    -the Kelari lived their nearly entire existance in *near harmony* with Telaran spirits. Even Sylver understands the weight of a person's spirit, but when you're dealing with a Guardian who wants to kill you... eh? What do you do? Again, the Defiants use bad situations and take the good out of it. While the Guardians take a good proposition and spread it throughout the world.
    -The Bahmi worship their ancestor spirits. Again, these ones realize the weight of a spirit.

    So enslavement? No. This is the end of the world, again. Picking souls from the soulstream to bring back to life... its not even dooming someone. The Ascended you play as, as a Defiant, can be assumed to be GLAD (in a grim way) they can DO SOMETHING to stop the end of the world. That's the Defiant way - DO SOMETHING.
    God, even in this world event questline, for the Defiants final quest, you save Cyril himself on Ember Isle, and Asha more or less says that. DO SOMETHING. WORK TOGETHER. STOP THE CULTS. The Guardians do enough to hold their lands, but then that's it, and only the Ascended Guardians even venture outside of that. The Defiants as a whole, have already decided to find out *anything* they can to stop the Blood Storm and their cults, *no matter what*.

    The same sort of conflict happened in a different way, during the Blood Storm War itself. The Blood Storm ravaged Telara and wrecked everything. The Vigil protected whatever people it could, and fought against the Blood Storm as best they could. Telara was losing. Humans developed this crazy stuff called 'magitech', and used it successfully against the dragons. Telara was saved, due to this stuff + a few dozen specific heroes + the Vigil's actions, but magitech was essential here. Oh whoops, Vigil bans magitech. Human race splits up. Eth empire starts.

    The Vigil and their worshippers do not want to recognize the importance and usefulness of magitech, as well as non-reliance on the Vigil being a part of one's life. The Defiants do not want to recognize the importance of the Vigil in the creation of the world and their investment with its people, and they absolutely hate the idea of relying on the Vigil, considering what that has brought before, and how far away the Vigil currently are (due to the Ward).

    Yin/Yang, etc. Neither are outright monsters, sheesh ;). The only truly bad factions in the game are the cults and the planar invaders. That's it. Even the cults can be traced to the dragons, as with the planar, and even the planar have hints that not *all* of them are evil. So then again, it still traces back to the dragons, and only the dragons so far. Defiants have tricky morality, but they are not remotely evil people.

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    (ugh and again, those were not even POWs. It was the end of the world, and those were Guardian fanatics turned into just another arm of the Endless Court. I blame Defiants for torturing those guys, just as much as I blame Guardians for killing the Defiants hanging around the death rift in Mathosia and supporting Aedraxis - as in, not at all.)

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    Kelari - Actually, not the Kelari. Everything was brought on by Akylios wrecking the land with waves and madness, and Akylios was caused by Regulos, which was caused by Aedraxis. (Mathosian)
    I've got an impression that Maelforge's cult started corrupting spirits and luring Kelari into their ranks with promises of power, making them Pyrkari. Kelari fought them while they could, but they had to leave the isles eventually.
    Feminism is the radical notion that women are people.

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    It's obvious I totally missed something about the Defiant then, is there any place I can read more of this stuff outside of doing all the quests? I don't want to follow blind fanaticism, as it were, and come to conclusions based on propaganda!

    If I had to choose and couldn't change my decision, I'd choose Defiant. I love the Magitech stuff.

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    I want to clarify something. I did a bit of reading from I guess dev blogs when the game was still in Beta. As a Defiant my soul wasnt stolen from a Guardian but was brought back to life from the Soulstream and put into a constructed body? If anyone is familiar with Warhammer 40k kind of like Eldar Wraithguard (soul put in a construct to fight after death)? And my other souls are people killed by Regulos and co and put into my body (so schitzophrenic I guess lol) so I can use various powers to stop the dragons?

    Is that understanding correct?
    Last edited by wayne62682; 05-15-2012 at 06:56 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kreiri View Post
    I've got an impression that Maelforge's cult started corrupting spirits and luring Kelari into their ranks with promises of power, making them Pyrkari. Kelari fought them while they could, but they had to leave the isles eventually.
    It's more like:
    -Regulos's power shatters
    -this wakes up Akylios, weakens runebindings
    -Akylios sends out tidal waves (and I assume, 'waves of madness' towards his followers and Telarans) outward
    -these waves crash over the Ember Isle*s*. This may cover places like the Forgotten Sanctum, etc.
    -Maelforge's power is thusly activated (see a pattern with the dragons here? lol, all activated by the Shade) and spreads into the local spirits
    -the Kelari become more desperate, and more likely to accept the promises of power that corrupted spirits offer
    -Kelari leadership come to turn into Pyrkari, and become like any follower of Maelforge becomes (imo the Emberlords are fallen Telarans or otherwise. The Pyromaster in Lantern Hook dungeon would, imo, turn into a powerful Emberlord in time).
    -Mona remains untouched by this though, her bond with the pure spirits being so strong. She calls the signal to end the battles/chaos on the isles, and collects everyone to commit to the Exodus from their lands. They arrive at Freemarch 2 years ago, and become accepted into the Bahmi+Eth Defiant faction, bolstering their numbers. Some however, stay on the 'refuge' on Freemarch, and try to just build a home. Others, like the Bahmi, seem to individually spread throughout the world, as neither settling down, nor fighting the Planes with the Defiants, are for them.

    So it is more desperation that brought on the 'promises of power'. This doesn't happen in the Mathosian and Dwarven storylines, but it does happen in the High Elven storyline. It's not certain what happened with the Eth, but it is possible that the Golden Maw could have brought the Kings to enough desperation that they took a 'Raven' (relating to the 3 faction pvp haha) point of view, and decided to Ascend beyond the Ward. Or not. Who knows.

    I don't blame the Kelari. They wanted an equal footing with the gods they dealt with (and if we accept the gods and even Vigil to just be very pure or impure collections of planar/sourcestone power, again, I don't blame her), and were doing JUST FINE, until Regulos corrupted Aedraxis. I don't think they could realistically expect suddenly corrupt spirits to arrive and turn their own people. In fact, it became the elites vs. 'the people' once again, with only Mona really surviving of their leadership.

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    Ascendant Maeloda's Avatar
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    Admins, I had a long edit post here about the Abyssal and Akylios and the Kelari, but you made me del;ete it all with your 'only edit within 5 minutes' message, without my permission. That's pretty sucky.

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    Ascendant Maeloda's Avatar
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    Read this. http://theoatmeal.com/comics/tesla

    Edison = Aedraxis/Cyril in different contexts (first part is Aedraxis, then its Cyril in second part with RADAR)
    Tesla = Orphiel
    Marconi = Sylver

    TRUTH ;)

    Defiants are working on improving the Vigil's design. This doesn't come without difficulties and even disastrous outcomes. You can choose whether to support them in this, or to side with the originally solid world of the Vigil's creation.
    (Ember Isle is a great example. Do you side with protecting the Forge of Creation for the Vigil? Or do you side with the local Telaran 'unnatural' spirits, and put your hope in them instead?)
    Last edited by Maeloda; 05-15-2012 at 09:28 AM.

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    I had a lot to say on this, yet found that most of it had been said already...well done, children. *the mage grins and puts the big book back on it's shelf*

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    RIFT Community Ambassador Maelystra's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wayne62682 View Post
    I want to clarify something. I did a bit of reading from I guess dev blogs when the game was still in Beta. As a Defiant my soul wasnt stolen from a Guardian but was brought back to life from the Soulstream and put into a constructed body? <snip> And my other souls are people killed by Regulos and co and put into my body (so schitzophrenic I guess lol) so I can use various powers to stop the dragons?

    Is that understanding correct?
    Pretty much. As you stand in the upper room in the life factory in Terminus, you can watch the various holograms of the souls the Defiant Soul Analyser has found. It even turns up a couple of Guardian souls which are flatly turned down and ordered sent back to the soul stream by the two officers standing there. The first soul you are born with is one of the acceptable Eth, Bahmi or Kelari souls which the analyzer finds.

    It's obvious I totally missed something about the Defiant then, is there any place I can read more of this stuff outside of doing all the quests? I don't want to follow blind fanaticism, as it were, and come to conclusions based on propaganda!
    I primarily picked up what I know from reading every single quest I've ever done, every book I've collected, and from stopping and watching game NPCs chatting with each other everywhere I go. This is one reason why I'm nowhere near burnt out on the game because I'm always finding new stuff to add to the picture.
    I also read the entire comic, which while there has been some retcon, still contains a ton of background information. Then there's the forums, the dev blogs etc.

    People who rush through the leveling process just to get to the 'endgame,' miss most of the game and why we're here.

    @Maeloda
    The Scarwood life rift was not opened by the Defiant. It was opened by the Aelfwar after they managed to steal the Eth machine from the Defiant. Asha is there to get it back and to close the rift.
    Last edited by Maelystra; 05-16-2012 at 03:33 AM.

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