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Thread: Who actually dies, who is just dispelled/temporarily-killed?

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    RIFT Community Ambassador the_real_seebs's Avatar
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    Default Who actually dies, who is just dispelled/temporarily-killed?

    The lore refers to the dragons as "dead", but we keep killing them.

    My headcanon on this is that "killing" them means killing the form they have manifested in our world, while the Blood Storm themselves continue to exist, but killing them weakens them, as they have to keep manifesting.

    Also this explains raid nerfs over time; as we keep killing them, they become weaker. So all those progression guilds are actually softening the raid bosses up over time, and so on.
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    Ascendant Maeloda's Avatar
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    Raid nerfs have nothing to do with canon, sorry :P.

    We can assume that both the GSB Chronicle, AND the raid, happen at around the same time. Or are the same thing. If it wasn't for established raid mechanics, I'm sure Trion would have patched in Shyla, whatshername, and Atrophinus assisting the raid against Greenscale.

    After say, Greenscale dies, he IS dead. Dead. Gone.

    But two things remain:
    -the collection of his corrupted (not pure) elemental energy. This is expressed in the 1.5 World Event, where his energy scatters across Telara
    --elements of his personality are contained here as well. One can assume that unpurified Dragon Mote energy causes one to become feral over time, and wish to devour the weak

    This energy can be reconstituted into a weaker Avatar. A few examples of this are in the lore:
    -Water Saga (at least for the Guardians) involve the Abyssal attempting to make YOU the next avatar of Madness. I think the Defiant version is where they try to make the Faceless Man be the avatar?
    -Kain is the next avatar of Regulos. Regulos certainly still exists, but enough of his power has scattered across Telara, that individuals can acquire it and take on his personality and his will. Aedraxis was the ultimate form of this, until his defeat, and Alsbeth would have likely taken that mantle at some point. This shows than an avatar does not necessarily mean that the dragon is dead, but that they embody what that dragon IS or WAS

    I can assume that the Aelfwar are seeking out a way to collect Greenscale's energy, but are far too scattered after Hylas' death. After Laethys and Maelforge die, I think we'll have to deal with at least Maelforge's energy. (I dunno how it will work with Laethys - with her coins?)
    The combination of their energy 'mated' into the dragon eggs they have. We don't know what that means yet.

    But yeah, long story short... they can really die. Really really die. It's just that their legacy remains, and so do their cults in some form. After ID:
    -Aelfwar are scattered and mostly without a leader. If they don't pull something big out, they seem screwed.
    -Abyssal have lost a TON of their leadership and cabals, but likely do have some surviving Tidelords.
    -Endless Court have lost the ground they made previously (their rampage from Stillmoor to Moonshade/Gloamwood), but still hold a shaky territory at the Endless Citadel (barely). Kain is the new leader, and endevors to utterly destroy the Ascended, but for now after Ceremony of Attunement, they seem to be in hiding again.
    -The Wanton can return as they come from the planes, but they are SEVERELY weakened at this point, having lost possibly a majority of leadership. Their races still exist, but are largely driven back.
    -The Maw are decimated. You already take care of most of their 'royalty' in Shimmersand, and Ember Isle/ID stuff stops their big plan. They may have a leader in hiding, but that's all we know.

    That leaves just Crucia's cult and dragon to be dealt with this year, and likely some big thing by the Endless Court/Regulos. After that, I think we may have to deal with the consequences of SO much 'dragon energy' floating around, and I hope for upheavals within our own factions as a result. (like faction NPCs becoming Avatars? Cults coming to worship other entities? Who knows?)

    Not to mention that the Planes will then be ripe for entering. I DON'T think that the dragons reside there in any way, but I do think that there are currently secret beings there that could make the dragons seem like a lame band of planar pillagers...

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    Ascendant Maeloda's Avatar
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    When things enter through a rift, they have no exact 'tie' to their plane. When say, a water elemental arrives through the Water Rift from the Plane of Water, killing it doesn't mean that it can return. It does die, but its essence is scattered. We get our Planarite and Planar Essences as a result!

    Dragon energy is just a super super superpowered version of planarite/essences. Whereas essences and Planar Attunement and such, simply *enrich* an Ascended, corrupted dragon energy stands to be too much, and can overwelm an Ascended (like Kain). It needs to either be purified (Guardians) or used as fuel or a tool with safeguards (Defiants) in order to be useful without corrupting people.

    It's all very 'spiritual', but I think Rift doesn't do the best job of explaining it.

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    But two things remain:
    -the collection of his corrupted (not pure) elemental energy. This is expressed in the 1.5 World Event, where his energy scatters across Telara
    --elements of his personality are contained here as well. One can assume that unpurified Dragon Mote energy causes one to become feral over time, and wish to devour the weak


    In this, Maeloda, aren't the dragons tears, that come from broken motes, pure elemental energy?
    Last edited by Mythue; 04-23-2012 at 07:04 AM.

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    Ascendant Maeloda's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mythue View Post
    But two things remain:
    -the collection of his corrupted (not pure) elemental energy. This is expressed in the 1.5 World Event, where his energy scatters across Telara
    --elements of his personality are contained here as well. One can assume that unpurified Dragon Mote energy causes one to become feral over time, and wish to devour the weak


    In this, Maeloda, aren't the dragons tears, that come from broken motes, pure elemental energy?
    "When Greenscale and Akylios fell, their power dispersed across Telara. Where this planar energy congeals, a Dragon Mote is formed. If left untouched, the Mote will become a blight upon the land, mutating plants and beasts and driving men to madness. But a broken Dragon Mote leaks Dragon Tears, the pure elemental energy of the hideous gods. The cults would use this power to resurrect their masters, unless the Ascended can harvest the Tears first."


    Not entirely sure. It could be one of two things:
    1)Purely elemental in the good way (aka just 'Life' and 'Water')
    2)Purely the dragon's energy (corrupt)

    We know that the planes themselves are neither benevolent nor evil, really. But this makes it sound like the Dragon Tears ARE 'corrupt' enough that they can create a new dragon in time.

  6. #6
    Rift Disciple GothWulfe's Avatar
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    I agree...we only have killed their "mortal bodies". In pretty much every fantasy setting, a God may only be killed either A> On it's home plane, or B> By another God.

    Since, though incredibly powerful by normal standards, we are not Gods...yet anyway...that leaves option A, and since it is said quite clearly that Telara is NOT the home plane of any of the Bloodstorm, that means that we will have to go to THEM at some point if we are going to finally fully destroy them. That is of course, if it is even POSSIBLE to destroy them. Perhaps we will simply imprison them once more. And remember, because of the slivers, any of the dragons that have had their mortal form destroyed on Telara could come busting "back to life" at any time....remember the Fall of Lantern Hook. In that timeline, the Ascended quite obviously failed, so there is really no reason that once we kill Maelforge here, that "other" Maelforge couldn't come through.

    As a side note, I see the reason that this hasn't happened with the other slivers is one of two things...or possibly a mix of both.

    A> DH and GP aren't quite on the same timeline that "Telara Prime" is, being a bit earlier or a bit later then our current time, leading the Dragons there to assume they pretty much have all the time in the world.

    or B> Pure paradox theory. You can't have the same person from two different times/realities in the same world at the same time, in effect keeping the "alternate" Dragons from coming through. Before you go "AH-HA! But there is a flaw there...Greenscale and Akylios have already been killed, so what is keeping THEM from coming through, hm?" you have to take into account that they have. "But, if they came from a different reality/timeline then why are they bound in Greenscale's Blight and Hammerknell?" you ask? The answer to that is easy <and quite nicely explains lore-wise how they could be killed over and over>. The ancient binding spells were never broken. Thus when Greenscale or Akylios come through the sliver portal into "Telara Prime" those binding spells IMMEDIATELY grab them and imprison them in the same place and manner that the "originals" were. This may smack of "a wizard did it" explanation, but...in this case a wizard/cleric/rogue/warrior really DID do it....they just did it a LONG time ago...and the spells still function as they were meant to....to bind that particular dragon.

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    I always thought that killing a Blood Storm god just banished them and destroyed their mortal forms for a while (undisclosed, could be one year could be one thousand years). They aren't "dead" but they're basically just spirits and can't cause any mischief for Telara for a while now.

    Basically like Sauron in Lord of the Rings - defeating him at the Battle of Daggorlad (when Isildur cut off the ring) didn't kill him, it just banished him for a few centuries while he slowly regained power. Even destroying the ring didn't destroy him utterly, it just destroyed all of his power and made it so he couldn't reform, but the malice still lingers.

    If the dragons are truly "gods" and not just super powerful beings, then I doubt we can ever truly kill them, just make it so they can't physically form on Telara again, but that won't stop them from sending their minions after us. So like, Greenscale, Akylios and soon to be Laethys and Maelforge have had their physical bodies destroyed, and their spirits were banished back to the Blood Storm. They can't physically come to Telara again, maybe for a while or maybe forever, but they can still have minions appear from their home planes to bother us.

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