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Thread: How's about this for Eth clerics?

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    Ascendant Galibier's Avatar
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    Default How's about this for Eth clerics?

    Was doing some thinking.

    From the various bits of lore we know the Eth do not "bow" to any god. We also know that they are a scientifically, or at least experimental leaning people. Because of this I came up with the following.

    Their powers are Hermetic in nature. Yes it is magic, BUT they study magic in a more spiritual sense than a mage does. As an example.

    One of the three paths to wisdom in Heremticism (irl) was through the study of alchemy. This was symbolized by the Operation of the Sun. It was NOT however just about changing lead into gold, It was also an investigation into the life of mater and existence through the application of the mysteries of birth, death and resurrection.

    Path two was through Astrology, or the Moon. The study of how the Planets influence the earth and the gaining of wisdom through understanding these influences

    Path three was through Theurgy. This losely trtanslates into "The Science (or art) of Divine works". This was also the practical application of Alchemy and the ultimate goal of the first and third together was to become united with higher powers leading to the attainment of Divine Consciousness.

    This essentially is a method of magic through the application of the scientific method, essentially the flip side that the Eth technitions do which is using science itself to simply duplicate magical effects. The mind set is the same (logical experimentation and the application of the knowledge gained there in) but heremeticism relies on the strengthing of the spirit to achieve the goal rather than the creation of a device that is divorced from the spirit because rather than the goal simply being the application of power in the material world, the goal is to ascend to a higher level of consciousness.

    It even fits to a huge degree with what we find through the Droughtlands quests. The disaster that destroyed the Eth Empire was an attempt to force this on a societal level rather than engage in the slow an arduous process of attaining such enlightment on an individual level.

    I
    Last edited by Galibier; 03-10-2012 at 12:45 PM.
    Far better is it to dare mighty things, to win glorius triumphs, even though checkered by failure... than to rank with those poor spirits who neither enjoy nor suffer much, because they live in a gray twilight that knows not victory nor defeat.

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    Plane Touched Akamhara's Avatar
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    The Kelari don't bow to a god either, they just barter with them. Does that not work for Eth too? I mean - Eth are not pure science, they have a hefty hand in the esoteric and arcane as well.

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    Ascendant Galibier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Akamhara View Post
    The Kelari don't bow to a god either, they just barter with them. Does that not work for Eth too? I mean - Eth are not pure science, they have a hefty hand in the esoteric and arcane as well.
    Their history is very clear though in that open what would be seen as more "traditional" negotiations with spirits through summoning rituals etc. They are very similar to the Melniboneans of Michael Moorcock's Elric books. They see themselves as already spiritually equal to all of these other beings so they enter "negotiations" with them.

    The Hermetic process is one where you have to acknowledge that you are in need of growth to reach a state of higher consciousness. The entire point of the scientific process is to acknowledge that you do not know things and need to learn. This I think would not fit the Kelari midset of already being the spiritual equal of the gods. To their mind no growth is needed.
    Last edited by Galibier; 03-10-2012 at 01:02 PM.
    Far better is it to dare mighty things, to win glorius triumphs, even though checkered by failure... than to rank with those poor spirits who neither enjoy nor suffer much, because they live in a gray twilight that knows not victory nor defeat.

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    I do see the Eth following concepts of this, Orphiel might even have, in his studies of Astrology? eventhough he was an Elementalist? and maybe even was an Elf? and I do see the Kelari as maybe following concepts of this as well, since returning from Terminus, where they saw spirits no longer granting them their powers, and especially if they did not take the quest to regain the power of the spirits of old. They must now find this power in other ways?

    and in reading of Hermetic, I loved that it included this meaning as well.

    In religious studies and social philosophy, hermeneutics (English pronunciation: /hɜrməˈn(j)uːtɨks/) is the study of the theory and practice of interpretation.

    Modern hermeneutics encompasses everything in the interpretative process including verbal and non-verbal forms of communication as well as prior aspects that affect communication, such as presuppositions, preunderstandings, the meaning and philosophy of language, and semiotics.[1]

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    I forgot about Orphiel's telescope in the observatory at the highest point in Meridian. You mentioning him reminded me. I still think though that the Kelari are traditionally more about using power through pacts with spirits and elemntals. There of course will be young kelari intrigued by the Eth methods but they would be Kelari using Eth magic. A Kelari using "Kelari" magic would be summoning spirits and elementals me thinks. I think that they even note someone the dismay of some of the more traditional Kelari over their "youth" being attracted to the methods of the Eth.
    Far better is it to dare mighty things, to win glorius triumphs, even though checkered by failure... than to rank with those poor spirits who neither enjoy nor suffer much, because they live in a gray twilight that knows not victory nor defeat.

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    tau
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    www.riftgame.com/en/classes/cleric/
    Telara’s original wielders of magic gained their powers through pacts with minor elemental spirits. Through devoted study, these Clerics reached out to ever-more-powerful beings, soon communing with demons, faeries, and gods. These holy men and women founded a number of spiritual disciplines: some focused tightly on a narrow ethos, while others retained more free-form theological allegiances.
    I think Trion's description of clerics does not exclude Eths. The vigil are not necessarily the only gods, and even if they were you still don't necessarily have to make a pact with a god to be a cleric. There is no mention of worship either.

    Also, it's not that the Eth don't worship gods, it's the defiant who don't worship the vigil. And they don't defy the vigil just for the sake of defying them; they're just doing what they can to survive, which just so happens to be in defiance of the vigil. I think the defiant mentality is to not be concerned with the vigil either way.
    Last edited by tau; 03-12-2012 at 07:52 AM.

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    Plane Walker Kreiri's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Galibier View Post
    I forgot about Orphiel's telescope in the observatory at the highest point in Meridian. You mentioning him reminded me. I still think though that the Kelari are traditionally more about using power through pacts with spirits and elemntals. There of course will be young kelari intrigued by the Eth methods but they would be Kelari using Eth magic. A Kelari using "Kelari" magic would be summoning spirits and elementals me thinks. I think that they even note someone the dismay of some of the more traditional Kelari over their "youth" being attracted to the methods of the Eth.
    This reminded me of Ember Isle Defiant quest line.

    Warning: Ember Isle Spoiler

    If only Anthousa were able to get past her ableism&traditionalism and remembered that Sylver can resurrect people. Jace would not have Ascended powers (or were blueprints from Terminus implemented already?), but he would be alive, and the old temple spirit would be alive.
    Feminism is the radical notion that women are people.

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    Ascendant Galibier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tau View Post
    www.riftgame.com/en/classes/cleric/

    I think Trion's description of clerics does not exclude Eths. The vigil are not necessarily the only gods, and even if they were you still don't necessarily have to make a pact with a god to be a cleric. There is no mention of worship either.
    Well the Eth are specifically stated as those who "bow before no god." This was actually their description prior to the coming of the first blood storm. So you have the "drawing power through personal faith in a god" being right out. When the Defiant speak of not depending on the Vigil they use the term "the gods" more often than not. There are also no other gods mentioned beyond the Blood Storm Dragon gods. As such there are likely no other gods out there. You can't just ASSUME there are other gods.

    If we go based on the lore and that the Blood Storm are the "bad gods" and the Vigil the "good gods" then the Defiant will also not have power bestowed upon them by the gods. They have nothing in their lore, unlike the Kelari, that show they have pacts with spirits as well.

    As such we have one of three choices. Invent gods out of whole cloth for a people whom the lore says "bow to no gods", come up with a purely technological reason for their powers (which makes no sense when you see them getting souls in the noobie zone) and then you also have the idea that hermeticism shows which is essentially the application of the scientific method to mysticism.

    The third seems to be the most logical and least lore breaking method. I think a heremtic back ground would NOT only fit "while others retained more free-form theological allegiances" it also fits in with the scientific method that the Eth represent in the game.

    Remember in the Faceless man's even goes so far as to identify a spy simply by their devotion to the Vigil aka the only "good" gods the game has, and executes him.
    Last edited by Galibier; 03-12-2012 at 05:58 PM.
    Far better is it to dare mighty things, to win glorius triumphs, even though checkered by failure... than to rank with those poor spirits who neither enjoy nor suffer much, because they live in a gray twilight that knows not victory nor defeat.

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    tau
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    The cleric description doesn't mention anything about worship, subservience or faith being requirements for clerics. It just says they make pacts with gods, faeries and demons. I didn't assume there are other gods outside the vigil; I just said it's a possibility. Even if the vigil are the only gods, it still leaves demons, faeries and other spirits that the Eth can commune with.

    "Commune" is the key word, and the way each cleric chooses to commune with the spirits varies greatly. Looking into the descriptions of the cleric souls, particularly the history for each soul, we have the justicar Thorvin who offers prayers to Theodor, Asias the cabalist who invokes the names of ancient spirits, and the most interesting one is the dwarf druid Asphodel: "I prayed that we were not alone in the universe, that… there were spirits of good who would be my friends.” So here we have a relationship of mutual friendship where the fae offer their powers to the cleric freely.

    I'm not saying that your ideas aren't plausible. I'm just saying that the existing lore doesn't contradict or exclude the Eth.
    Last edited by tau; 03-14-2012 at 04:04 AM.

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    at times I find 'gods' easier to understand in this game, if I view them all as elements.:)

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    "bow before no god."

    is it this? or bows before no single god.

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    Ascendant Galibier's Avatar
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    In the elvish history the nomads to the south (Eth) are specifically referred to as bowing before no god in an uneqivical sence. This would also be consistent with the history as passed on by the Eth themselves. With the exception of the Bahmi, all of the other races, even the Kelari, note their relationship with gods (though the Kelari note the contentious nature of theirs). In the Eth history they have no relationship with gods. They acknowledge gods exist but there is no relationship.

    This makes perfect sense. The Eth are basically the ultimate humanists. If you chose to play an Eth imo, according to the lore in the current state of was, you are chosing to play a person who intellectually acknowledges the existance of beings of great power but does not worship them.

    If one wishes to be a pious Eth I would suggest rolling a Mathosian but make him look Eth like during character generation as best you can and simply roleplay yourself as an Eth who chose to move north when Orphiel and Cyril split tbh.
    Far better is it to dare mighty things, to win glorius triumphs, even though checkered by failure... than to rank with those poor spirits who neither enjoy nor suffer much, because they live in a gray twilight that knows not victory nor defeat.

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    Quote Originally Posted by tau View Post
    The cleric description doesn't mention anything about worship, subservience or faith being requirements for clerics. It just says they make pacts with gods, faeries and demons. I didn't assume there are other gods outside the vigil; I just said it's a possibility. Even if the vigil are the only gods, it still leaves demons, faeries and other spirits that the Eth can commune with.

    "Commune" is the key word, and the way each cleric chooses to commune with the spirits varies greatly. Looking into the descriptions of the cleric souls, particularly the history for each soul, we have the justicar Thorvin who offers prayers to Theodor, Asias the cabalist who invokes the names of ancient spirits, and the most interesting one is the dwarf druid Asphodel: "I prayed that we were not alone in the universe, that… there were spirits of good who would be my friends.” So here we have a relationship of mutual friendship where the fae offer their powers to the cleric freely.

    I'm not saying that your ideas aren't plausible. I'm just saying that the existing lore doesn't contradict or exclude the Eth.
    The only reason I find this a little off is simply the culture of the Eth. Yeah there are always odd balls in every culture but for the most part there is a Standard Operating Procedure (for lack of a better term). The Kelari speak about how they utilize their magic via bargains with spirits. The Bahmi speak about the worship of their ancestors. The Eth do not speak directly on the topic of magic but it clear from everything that is out their that their culture is largely governed by the scientific method.

    So if this is their culture, essentially a fantasy version of technocratic state how within the lore do we apply this to the Eth? If we want to keep it magic and not simply have it be technology duplicating the effects of magic we have to narrow our focus even further. We also want to keep it unique. So when I remember reading about Hermeticism it seemed to fit perfectly, it's magic BUT it's a magic system man created with not just a need for spiritual enlightenment BUT one that seeks this goal by trying to quantify the unknown. I think this is an important difference between the other races. The stereotypical Kelari I think would shy from such activity. The fact that you engage in study and experimentation to quantify something is to admit that there is an unknown, a weakness to over come. They are the spiritual equals of the gods in their minds so admitting to such a weakness would be troubling. The Bahmi look to their ancestors, the past, for guidance and such focus on rear ward reflection also is counter to this idea. So yeah there may be an Eth whondecides to make allainces with fae or other beings in a manner similar to the Kelari, but just like the Kelari are kinda shocked by their youth being enamored with magitech I think you would see many Eth looking at one of their own engaging in such an illogical pursuit in a similar manner.

    When I say "Eth clerics" I am referring to an ethos. Look at it this way. When people refer to "western" religion they mean Judeo/Christian. It is not unheard of for a westerner to be a Buddhist or Muslim however. Similarly while what I propose here is the path for Ethian clerics, it does not mean all Eth as individuals would have to follow this path.

    What is also good about this path is that it can but does not have to include a literal divine being or god as is focus. You can integrate one if you wish but ultimately it is about studying the interaction of the elements,the planets and the stars and using these studies for the improvement of the spirit and then the application of power. Because while clericsnin rift do not need gods they do need spiritualism.

    [QUOTEThese holy men and women founded a number of spiritual disciplines: some focused tightly on a narrow ethos, while others retained more free-form theological allegiances.[/QUOTE]

    The key words being holy, spiritual and theological.

    As a "people" the Kelari spiritualism is based on the concept of being the equal of the gods, the Bahmi are about the veneration of the ancestors and while it is not explicitly stated, simply by reading the history of Eth they are clearly about the improvement of the human condition.
    Far better is it to dare mighty things, to win glorius triumphs, even though checkered by failure... than to rank with those poor spirits who neither enjoy nor suffer much, because they live in a gray twilight that knows not victory nor defeat.

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    Gabilier,

    when reading of the Eth, it is said that they travelled in Thirteen Tribes, and that there are four cities that each of these thirteen tribes settled in.

    numerology makes me add 1 + 3 making four. and I wonder of the connection. Do you see a connection in this? Did the Eth, as Travellers further separate into these four cities, are the cities known for certain types of knowledge?

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    Ascendant Galibier's Avatar
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    I had actually not looked at it from a numerological point of view but rather the tribes of Israel. Now typically we think of the 12 tribes of Israel but many believe in the "lost" tribe of Israel using this line from the bible..... Jacob blessed Joseph's two sons and said
    “Ephraim and Manasseh will become mine like Reuben and Simeon”
    If you read the bible it fights hard to keep 12 tribes but you will fine a funny trend. When just the tribe of Ephraim is mentioned you have 12 tribes. When the brothers however are mentioned seperately the tribe of Levi is suddenly not mentioned. Some scholars think this was done to keep the number of tribes (12) consistent with the number as it applies to astrology. Most notably in the Book of numbers you see Levi gone suddenly.

    The numerology idea is interesting though but I wonder if it is a little obscure and if they were not simply using the tribes of israel as a basis. You can extend this to the exile, though in this case it was do directly to their own actions and not simply due to an invasion as occurred to Israel with the Babylonia invasion.
    Last edited by Galibier; 03-16-2012 at 06:11 AM.
    Far better is it to dare mighty things, to win glorius triumphs, even though checkered by failure... than to rank with those poor spirits who neither enjoy nor suffer much, because they live in a gray twilight that knows not victory nor defeat.

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