+ Reply to Thread
Page 1 of 2 1 2 LastLast
Results 1 to 15 of 19

Thread: What do the Vigil plan? (fate of the Ascended)

  1. #1
    Soulwalker Kintyre's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Posts
    21

    Default What do the Vigil plan? (fate of the Ascended)

    There is a theological question that my Warrior wrestles with.
    After this, then what?
    The Vigil are the "benevolent patron deities" of the Guardians (and irritating sources of faith and belief in their opponents for the Defiant), but are they really as beneficent as they appear? They have, after all, messed with the time stream and plucked dead people from the Soulstream. Admittedly, the goal is a noble one, prevent/halt the destruction/corruption/mutation of the world and all life upon it, but what happens to the Ascended?
    If the planes are brought back into balance (via the destruction of the Blood Storm, freeing the planes from the taint of being leashed to insane gods seeking the enslavement and/or rebirth and/or destruction of the world), what awaits the immortals created for war? A few options present themselves.
    Nothing - The Ascended remain on Telara for eternity, immortal protectors and guides to the mortal populance.
    Reward - The Ascended are rewarded by their creators (or benevolent "rivals"), either by ascension to godhood or elevation to a paradise realm or becoming Messengers of the Vigil.
    Death - The souls of the Ascended are plucked from their bodies and returned to the Soulstream, awaiting reincarnation (again), Nirvana/blessed union, or just swimming along for eternity.
    Destruction - Fearful of their most powerful creations' ambitions and strength, the Vigil erase the Ascended from Telara and their souls from existence, removing evidence of the "failure" of the Gods by allowing planar attacks and "other gods." The darkest version of this leaves the souls of the Ascended intact if ever needed again, but trapped conscious and aware of their predicament in the abodes of the gods or in a hell-realm created for the unneeded/unwanted.
    Apotheosis - The Vigil retire from "active godhood" and leave the Ascended in their place to rule and watch the mortal races. While not quite the same as true ascension or nothing as listed above, the Ascended become more powerful than they are currently, but weaker than the Vigil currently is.

    What do you/your characters think will happen? Of course, the huge "if" of destroying/defeating/banishing the Blood Storm remains in the way of this.

  2. #2
    Telaran Cyrenne's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Posts
    76

    Default

    I find it very interesting that other people have put this kind of thought into "what happens next."

    Many of my characters have different thoughts on the subject. My ambitious pyro mage feels that if she proves herself, surely there will be a reward. She wants nothing more or less than absolute power. It's probably a bad thing™. However, I have anther more necro/chloro mage who hopes that when this is all over, she will be allowed to rest, returning to the lifestream. My cleric sees himself as a protector and would be happy to continue to protect Telara as long as he is needed. He doesn't have the ambition that my pyro mage does, but if godhood is what it takes to protect Telara, he will do whatever is needed.

    I could go on and on.
    Give me fuel, give me fire...
    Give me that which I desire...
    Some just want to watch the world burn


  3. #3
    RIFT Community Ambassador Morvick's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2010
    Location
    Behind you.
    Posts
    3,294

    Default

    For those that the Vigil fears (Kain & Co.), I'd imagine Destruction. These were failures of faith, promises that never pulled through. Now that they threaten the order the Vigil would instill, they must be put down.

    For the greater population of Guardian Ascended, however, I'm leaning between Nothing because the Telarans will need salient protectors to help them rebuild, or Reward. Keep in mind that as you receive your Planar Attunement from the Gods, the Messenger specifically dubs it as being "[brought] closer to their light", referring to the Vigil.

    As the Guardian Ascended grows more powerful, they slowly leave their mortality behind and enter a state of being that is neither alive nor dead, which is a state that I often consider Gods to be in.
    The masters of both worlds yet belonging to neither.
    The Vigil Gods step outside of Creation and watch from afar, just as the Ascended do when they might leave Telara (very early builds of the game had you looking upon a destroyed Telara from the high-and-away Plane of Death, and to venture into the Rifts would be to leave the mortal realm of logic and impermanence behind).

    My character (Morvick the Cleric) tends to take a passive view on the subject; whatever happens will happen, and he has no interest in railing against the Will of the Gods. Certainly he hopes to keep spreading the unique perspective of the Ascended to as many mortals as possible, but there's also the realization that to live forever might really suck. If there was a way to escape Ascension and flee to the Soul Stream again, he might seek that option in the distant future should he ever grow depressed or nihilistic. As he's currently maintained, I share my acceptance of the world order with him. There is a balance to be maintained, and selfish desires (immortality, greed) should never threaten that.
    Last edited by Morvick; 03-01-2012 at 07:10 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Zinbik View Post
    I also made other enhancements to certain aspects of the game for various reasons.

  4. #4
    Rift Disciple GothWulfe's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2011
    Posts
    179

    Default

    Meanwhile after the Vigil takes the Guardian ascended to their reward, or whatever awaits them, the Defiant Ascended look at them, make a rude gesture, and tell them exactly where their divine rumps can go before going on with their lives protecting what they care about.

  5. #5
    Ascendant Maeloda's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2010
    Location
    Ottawa, Canada
    Posts
    7,617

    Default

    This is very interesting. I'm more inclined to believe that it might come down to an individual basis. Some ascended further, some allowed to remain on Telara if they so wish, some punished, etc. For now, with the Vigil beyond the Ward, the Ascended have largely free will, a free will which is kindly given to them. I don't think that an Ascended wouldn't also be judged when all is said and done though.

    I would almost think that the Vigil are in a 'wait and see' sort of approach toward this. Creating Ascended of this scale is a truly drastic step it seems. For now, they set up the chess pieces as best they can... which is difficult when those chess pieces cannot be directly controlled (an it also seems the Vigil would NEVER want to directly control a Telaran anyway!).

  6. #6
    Ascendant Galibier's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Posts
    10,460

    Default

    See I don't see this as the Ascended being neither alive or dead. They are not shades or spectres. I think the ascended are essentially entering another type of existence. They now straddle the line between mortal and deity. Ascended are the demigods, Hercules, Perseus and Theseus, of Telara. I think it's why we have them now and not during the first Bloodstorm. Of course the gods would be hesitant to empower potential "successors" but they were faced with the choice of watching the world so much of themselves is tied up in being destroyed or taking this step. As for destruction I do not see this as an option any more than they could destroy Telara to close the gateway to the other planes. Too much of themselves in now invested in the ascended. Destroying them could be akin to cutting of their own arm. The aftermath of the war, if the Telaras are victorious could well be as interesting a story as that of the war itself.
    Far better is it to dare mighty things, to win glorius triumphs, even though checkered by failure... than to rank with those poor spirits who neither enjoy nor suffer much, because they live in a gray twilight that knows not victory nor defeat.

  7. #7
    Plane Walker
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Posts
    479

    Default

    To be honest Ive gotten the feeling that the situation as it is now has moved beyond just a 'fix everything up and go back to our lives' thing. I think the very fact that the Vigil created the Ascended is a sign that Telara faces major change that is going to change the nature of the world. One of the most interesting bits of text Ive read though as a Guardian was the Abbot of Thontic's intro speel when you first arrive at the Sanctum.

    The Vigil never made Ascended before even when the Bloodstorm first threatened to destroy Telara and the situation seemed far less in our favor. What makes this time so different that they feel the need to create 'immortal saints' this time? Mortals were able to defeat the dragons the first time round and that was when all the dragons were free. The abbot said that he feels the gods fear for Telara and worry that it wont be able to survived what is over the horizon.

    This leads into whats next after we finish of the dragons. I find some of this tidbits in game deleciously ominous.

  8. #8
    Ascendant Maeloda's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2010
    Location
    Ottawa, Canada
    Posts
    7,617

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Lutinz View Post
    To be honest Ive gotten the feeling that the situation as it is now has moved beyond just a 'fix everything up and go back to our lives' thing. I think the very fact that the Vigil created the Ascended is a sign that Telara faces major change that is going to change the nature of the world. One of the most interesting bits of text Ive read though as a Guardian was the Abbot of Thontic's intro speel when you first arrive at the Sanctum.

    The Vigil never made Ascended before even when the Bloodstorm first threatened to destroy Telara and the situation seemed far less in our favor. What makes this time so different that they feel the need to create 'immortal saints' this time? Mortals were able to defeat the dragons the first time round and that was when all the dragons were free. The abbot said that he feels the gods fear for Telara and worry that it wont be able to survived what is over the horizon.

    This leads into whats next after we finish of the dragons. I find some of this tidbits in game deleciously ominous.
    Yes. I LOVE that stuff. It also explains how we're chopping through the dragons so damn quickly (3, maybe 4 soon already?). I think 2012 will involve greater hints on what is coming (as well as pretty much 'finish' mainland Telara content, for the most part), and 2013 will finally explore what these greater threats are, possibly in expansion-type content.

  9. #9
    Plane Walker
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Posts
    479

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Maeloda View Post
    Yes. I LOVE that stuff. It also explains how we're chopping through the dragons so damn quickly (3, maybe 4 soon already?). I think 2012 will involve greater hints on what is coming (as well as pretty much 'finish' mainland Telara content, for the most part), and 2013 will finally explore what these greater threats are, possibly in expansion-type content.
    What I would love is if they can some how give us this sense of victory and how we are the badasses for taking down the dragons and then just hit us with a revilation that we have been fighting in the equivilant of the kiddy pool with floaters on.

    Id just love that sense of 'holy ****'.

  10. #10
    Ascendant Galibier's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Posts
    10,460

    Default

    I think part of the reason why the ascended are needed now is not as obtuse as others look at it. First it seems more than possible that the dragon cults were not as strong. There is no mention of an Alsebeth or a Kain. It seems that the cults may be a post invasion push @ subversion. A 5th column so to speak, to make the next invasion more successful. Also at the time the Eth tech was likely close to it's peak. The technology was clearly one of the instrumental reasons for the defeat of the blood storm and shortly after the invasion, the Eth Empire was born with this tech developed during the war as it's foundation. That said the lore is equally clear that much of this tech remains buried in the sands and the Defiant are as much rediscovering that which was lost as much as truly "inventing" tech.

    So we have a new and improved (or simply new) threat in the dragon cults added to a lack of Eth tech to turn against the invasion. These two factors could well result in the creation of Ascended in order to regain an edge that would otherwise be lost.
    Far better is it to dare mighty things, to win glorius triumphs, even though checkered by failure... than to rank with those poor spirits who neither enjoy nor suffer much, because they live in a gray twilight that knows not victory nor defeat.

  11. #11
    Plane Walker
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Posts
    479

    Default

    Well there didnt need to be a Kain or Alsbeth as the Dragons were leading their armies themselves. Also Im not convinced the Dragon cults werent as strong or stronger than they are now. Firstly the discription of the war implies that Magitech was developed during the war rather than prior to it. Prior to the war they were mostly Nomads. The glorious Eth Empire came into existance after the Bloodstorm war.

    Things were still bad. We know of at least one event where the gods had to directly take a hand in events. A world without the Ward to limit planar invasions and with the Dragons free would be less serious than what we have now doesnt seem to fit for me.

    After all the only reason we didnt get wiped out in the first war is the Dragons took too much time fighting each other to start with.

    (Note, I realise Eboni somewhat contradicts the timeline as Im aware of it. It would require some clarafication)

  12. #12
    Ascendant Galibier's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Posts
    10,460

    Default

    It's pretty clear from reading the lore that the tech was there, the war did not create it. If anything what the war did was take seperate technologically advanced tribes and unite them into a structure that would become after the War the Eth Empire. Even in the technology advanced due to the war, the technology that led to victory was lost due to the fall of the empire. No matter how you look at it the Eth tech of today is currently a shadow of what it was.

    Also there are a number of things that indicate that there were few to no dragon cults at the time of thw first invasion.

    First it makes little sense that a Dragon god free to roam a world would enlist the aid of his lunch when he sees them as so little. Remember this is the first time they show up. They are powerful and arrogant. They are not going to see some odd conglomeration of metal parts or a Mathosians wiggling his fingers as a threat. If they are not a threat why will they be seen as a useful tool. I have little doubt that as the war progressed they saw the value of forming the cults but it is highly unlikely they started the war with them intact.

    Beyond this logic the lore can be seen to confirm this. Now note when I note "cultists" I do not refer to the Fae, wanton etc. I refer to those elves, Kelari, Eth etc that were corrupted. When you read the story of House Aelfwar they refer to them becoming cultists most recently actually, being corrupted by a fae lord. In the story of the Endless court it specifically states that it was started DURING the firat blood storm by two people

    The Endless Court began as a conspiracy between two powerful figures during the time of the Blood Storm: the dark mage Alekor Devishnille and the warlord Mahr Rilthain. They say Mahr sacrificed his own children to prove his loyalty to Regulos and sever his attachment to life. Meanwhile, Alekor slaughtered whole villages to gather the components for his cruel rituals. These two were the first to wear the black robes of Regulos, rallying others to work toward Telara’s end, and their traditions were passed down through the generations. Even after the Destroyer was banished, his followers never ceased to haunt Telara.
    Heck before the coming of the blood storm 1500 years prior people probably did not even know they existed to be members of their cult, however once some mortals with darker urges knew they existed the flocked to their banner. They have now had 1500 years to insuiate themselves and grow in power. The power of the Eth tech is a shadow of what it once was, the elves are now divided due to the actions of house Aelfwar, the rightfilly anointed king was corrupted to the will of Regulos and went so far as to become his avatar (we shatter him in the newbie quest Giardian side) and the ward is shattered. Its 1500 years ago without the advantages of unity and technology that the "good" side enjoyed and with cults that have had over a millenia to grow while everyone else fell.

    Examples: a still on going Mathosian civil war as evidenced by Stillmoor, the lower level of magitech. Elves divided into elf, Aelfwar and Kelari. The dwarves no longer being a true nation due to the fall of Hammerknell (though I saw a bright spot when I killed Estrode )

    So stronger enemy, weaker allies, the Ascended are to be the balance to replace the strength that was lost over a millenia of mortal weakness compounding.
    Far better is it to dare mighty things, to win glorius triumphs, even though checkered by failure... than to rank with those poor spirits who neither enjoy nor suffer much, because they live in a gray twilight that knows not victory nor defeat.

  13. #13
    Ascendant Galibier's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Posts
    10,460

    Default

    Edit limit.

    This is an almost Tolkien like story. 1500 years ago, when the various races were at their height they deceated their foe. Their foe however over almost 2 millenia plotted and moved in the shadows. They grew their cults in secret. They took advantage of the hubris of the Eth Empire anx used it to destroy them and rob the world of their magitech. Aedraxis did not in a simply fit of maddness destroy the ward, he was corrupted by Regulos just as Prince Hylas was corrupted by a servant of Green Scale. They both brought many followers with them. What the cults could not corrupt they weakened or outright destroyed. Then when mortals seemed at their weakest the Blood Storm Strikes again theough their servants to be free and destroy Telara yet again.

    The Ascended are the X-factor brought to bare to prevent this.
    Far better is it to dare mighty things, to win glorius triumphs, even though checkered by failure... than to rank with those poor spirits who neither enjoy nor suffer much, because they live in a gray twilight that knows not victory nor defeat.

  14. #14
    Plane Walker
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Posts
    479

    Default

    The Eth history page suggests that harnessing sourcestone was something that happened after the Dragons invaded. Infact the only reason we werent completely overrun is they started fighting among themselves.

    'But most Eth roamed the sands, so the dragons fell upon a divided people. The Golden Maw infiltrated Eboni and subverted it from within, and so we called it the Charmed City only with bitter tongues. We fought like desert tigers, slashing with talons and fangs and vanishing back into the sands, but the dragons were too terrible.

    It was one of the Mkhai tribe who first drew energy from sourcestone, inspired by the ways the planes warp and change Telara to see the vast magic within the stone of creation. Building upon this breakthrough, we crafted engines of war to turn upon the dragons.'


    It really makes it sound like the Eth leanred ot harness Magitech post Dragons.

    As for the cults, ignoring that there was no ward so drawing on their forces from the planes was ALOT easier for the Dragons at the time, We know Crucia subjegated and mind controlled an entire nation turning them into one huge hive mind shortly after she arrived. The only reason her armies were stopped was because the Vigil stepped in and froze them in IPP. Eboni was the richest and possibly most developed of Eth cities and it was run by the Golden Maw.

    The Endless court seemed to kick in later. My memory of the founding of the Abyssal is hazy so I cant remember when it started. Both the Wanton and the Fae came with there dragons from the Planses so there cults were already around. Honestly it was probably only the fact that they had to start fighting each other that they bothered with the cults.

    Im still not convinced that a world where the dragons were running free and no ward existed to stop planar invasion was better than the situation the current Telara seems to be in. Even ignoring the cults the Dragons still had very powerful armies and the mortal races were nowhere near as developed as they are now.

  15. #15
    Ascendant Galibier's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Posts
    10,460

    Default

    You are ignoring the KEY point with minutia on the tech issue. Even if the war is what brought it to it's height (and I do not argue that that this is not the case) the point is the tech level now is but a shadow of what it was. This is even mentioned specifically by Orphiel when he was still an advisor and tutor to the royal house of Mathos when he is teaching

    From the diary of Asha Catari, age 12

    Master Orphiel today told us about the ancient Eth—like me!—who tamed half the world and created a golden age of magic and learning. Oh how grand to have miniature cities made of crystal where mice are enchanted to walk upright and put on plays, or to ride to war on a mechanical horse powered by lightning. He says that the technology is like a pearl hidden under the sea-bed. You can find it if you dig hard enough, and then everything will glitter. You just have to use it more carefully than the old Eth did, so nothing goes out of control.
    Also you confuse the cults with the inhuman servants. The wanton a, they have andre odd an are arguably not a cult. It appears they may have always serve these beings but they keep nomrecords according tomthe lore and there really is no reason to doubt that they to were not ignorant of the dragons until the first blood storm invasion. For the most part the cultists are corrupted humans, elves, kelari, bahmi etc. With the endless cult I already noted you have this for the Golden Maw origin... Eboni was where they were founded and this is what it says
    Shortly after the Blood Storm first darkened the sky, Callista began erecting statues of golden dragons on every street corner. Passersby would find themselves wanting more: more wealth, more lovers, more power. And they grew ever more certain that their neighbors, their loved ones, their children had things they did not. All Eboni fell to squabbling, then to crime, then slaughter in the streets.
    So they don't start until after the invasion starts.

    The story of the abyssal founder...

    When the Blood Storm arrived on Telara, and Akylios’s spawn hauled themselves up from the seas, those mortals who were not dragged under the waves ran for their lives. Only one young scholar would not flee, for under the hideous gibbering and piteous screams she heard someone singing a song of infinite knowing.
    again after the invasion started. Until the invasion there were NO cults period, that is lore.

    So again by lore we are left with bigger cults, lesser tech, a divided "humanity" so the ascended are needed to balance the scales.
    Last edited by Galibier; 03-14-2012 at 11:02 AM.
    Far better is it to dare mighty things, to win glorius triumphs, even though checkered by failure... than to rank with those poor spirits who neither enjoy nor suffer much, because they live in a gray twilight that knows not victory nor defeat.

+ Reply to Thread
Page 1 of 2 1 2 LastLast

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts