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Thread: what if the Vigil wanted magitech to run rampant?

  1. #1
    Ascendant Galibier's Avatar
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    Default what if the Vigil wanted magitech to run rampant?

    Here is a thought. You never see thw Vigil yelling "slay the Defiant my children." They speak of the Defiant as being lost, of crying for them etc. It are the ascended and mortal servants of thw Vigil who are so fanatical in their hatred of the Defiant for a multitude of reasons.

    What if the Vigil outlawed magitech KNOWING it would push the defiant away and spur on even more radical studies in science? Here me out. The Vigil can clearly see slivers. As such they know that there are realities with out Defiant Ascended and where the tech is destroyed that results in the destruction of the world. Now what if they also know that the rate of scientific advancement would be stunted in an explicitly peaceful environment. Regretably it seems that conflict and competition are the most effective incentives for technological advancement and maybe, just maybe the Vigil created conflict betwen the Mathosians and their allies vs the Eth and their allies with the intent of spurring magitech advancement knowing that the ward would shatter sooner or later and that technology of a sufficient level of advancement was needed even if it caused a rift between the factions (pun intended)
    Far better is it to dare mighty things, to win glorius triumphs, even though checkered by failure... than to rank with those poor spirits who neither enjoy nor suffer much, because they live in a gray twilight that knows not victory nor defeat.

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    The Vigil don't actively destroy the Defiant because they believe in free will and mistakes, they show others what will come to pass and forbid them for what are usually good reasons. Kain was clearly told he was going to go evil and blew it off, so it's likely that the ancient Eth got told something similar and blew that off too. Not only that, but the Vigil doesn't forbid all technology or all advancement, JUST Magitech under the excuse of "It damages the ward." Defiants then promptly tell the Vigil to shut it, point at Magitech Wardstones, and just keep on trucking. As proof doesn't exist for either side, we're kinda left to assume that either the Vigil is either lying profusely (which we have no evidence to believe) or the Defiant are wrong (which would invalidate their entire ideology). Thus, the question will never be answered.

    It is an interesting outlook that they would encourage the Defiants to pursue magitech technology by banning it, but the question really comes back to why? Other technology can and does bolster the ward and the Vigil have never had a problem with it, so why do they hate Magitech so readily above all else?

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    Ascendant Galibier's Avatar
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    Well if they allow free will they gave guidance on magitech. You would think they would give similar guidance on what arguably leads in the former timeline to racial cleansing. So how do we reconcile gods who are the parents of the natives of telara with ones who let go unchecked what evolves into something again to a collective homicidal rage? Remember agin it is NOT the Vigil who overtly say to the Guardians "go forth and do war with the Bloodstorm AND defiant destroy them all", this is the orders of Cyril and other mortals/ascended in the name of defeating heresy.

    With that in mind I must apologize, I thought I made the reason clear. Regardless of whether or not some tech does bolster the ward they KNOW that the probabilities, based on the slivers, indicates the ward will fall. They are not omniscient nor omnipotent. They can not create an unlimited number of ascended. Because of this they need weapons and more ascended soldiers than their powers would allow for. Remember it takes 20 years for guardian PC's to finish the process. Because of this they need a more aggressive advancement of the technology than mutual peace and prosperity would allow for in the time frame where the probabilities indicated that the next invasion of the Bloodstorm would occur.

    Also they are never clear on the fact that the simple use of magitech weakens the ward. Yes it literally destroyed the ward through an overt function and perhaps what they said to outlaw it was simply the ommission of a key fact to get their plan in motion. Perhaps the probabilities even initially led them to believe that Zareph would survive and with him their would be an alliance of the factions (as the sliver in Meridian indicates) Now they are painted into a corner. Are they supposed to just come out and say "forget about 1000 years of dogma, we did that to manipulate you all down different paths for the safety of Telara. You must now unite." This would not go over well I suspect.

    Perhaps that is what the tears are for that the Messenger speaks of. It is not the tears of one who sees their children go so far astray but rather the tears of a parent who, no matter the reasons, had to push their child away and abandon them.
    Last edited by Galibier; 02-13-2012 at 12:49 PM.
    Far better is it to dare mighty things, to win glorius triumphs, even though checkered by failure... than to rank with those poor spirits who neither enjoy nor suffer much, because they live in a gray twilight that knows not victory nor defeat.

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    I will agree that this is definitely an interesting mindset into why the Vigil banned Magitech, but by the same token there already is a god within the Vigil that promotes aggressive research and doing what it takes to succeed, namely Thontic. If they did genuinely wish to encourage Magitech use, Thontic would be at the forefront of it and would guide the Defiant in doing it properly or even discreetly, as opposed to being silent or part of the overall goal to ban it outright. Thontic is by and far the reason the Guardians use all means necessary and don't shy away from using evil magic (cabalist/necromancers/etc), with the only exception being Magitech.

    This in and of itself begs the question of why Magitech is so bad. We genuinely can't get an answer to this, for risk of invalidating one side or another (the proverbial painting into a corner), which in turn leads to confusion and inconsistency. If Magitech at large isn't harmful to the Ward, Thontic of all people should be out there going "Yo Holmes, s'cool, go on and use it." If it is, Defiants are jerks that destroy the Ward by neglecting or ignoring the costs of Magitech in general. I think that your interpretation is the best of both words, because Thontic would have been behind it all and would have been silently guiding the Defiants growth in Magitech research, but that just makes the Vigil look like they don't have their own crap together, which is something that we haven't been presented with.

    As for the tears of the Messengers and the homicidal mania present in the Guardians, I think that explanation is simple. the Messengers (and by extension the Guardians) can see and exist in all realities at once. Despite this, they cannot or will not directly influence or change the actions within each given sliver, and are thus forced to watch the countless failures that come with the limitless possibilities therein. Curiouser, the nature of Slivers is called into question simply because of the strange nature of certain ones. We know that in some, Guardian Ascended can gain godhood, in others the Defiant are the stronger power, and so on and so forth. It's very likely the one that the PCs work in is the "best case scenario" or the "real" timeline that all other realities are based off of. Effectively, each Sliver is meant to serve as a warning to the Guardians of what may come to pass, and in one given example the "invaders" of one Sliver came into the real reality, and then stuff just gets confusing.

    I very much like with the fostering by virtue of banning, it just makes me wonder what Thontic is doing in all this, or why Magitech was really banned.

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    Ascendant Galibier's Avatar
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    Well thontic is a god of knowledge but this is in the generic sense so I do not see how it is contrary. I guess what it comes down to is this. I have three options in regarding the vigil.
    1. The idea I put forth here.
    2. They are vain beings willing to watch their children fight a 2 front war so that technology that might ermit mortals to rival their power is surpressed.
    3. That even with their ability to see the potentialities via the slivers, in their arrogance, again they permit a two front war which prior the Defiants coming back in time actually lead to what amounts to racial cleansing and the loss of Telara to the bloodstorm.

    The only option that does not make the Vigil simply a more handome overlord than the Bloodstorm is option 1.

    I say all this because if Eth tech was truly that bad I believe the Vigil would have said "Yo Zeraph wth are you doing thay stuff is evil and will destroy the world." Remember the messengers were around 20 years ago and they had 19 years to bend Zeraph's ear who according to his own journals was not a personal fan of magitech but saw it as a needed tool in the war. Instead they stand by and allow him to form the uneasy alliance of Orphiel and Cyril and the Defiant's are only born when Zeraph, the lynch pin, is removed from the board.
    Last edited by Galibier; 02-13-2012 at 01:25 PM.
    Far better is it to dare mighty things, to win glorius triumphs, even though checkered by failure... than to rank with those poor spirits who neither enjoy nor suffer much, because they live in a gray twilight that knows not victory nor defeat.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Galibier View Post
    Well thontic is a god of knowledge but this is in the generic sense so I do not see how it is contrary. I guess what it comes down to is this. I have three options in regarding the vigil.
    1. The idea I put forth here.
    2. They are vain beings willing to watch their children fight a 2 front war so that technology that might ermit mortals to rival their power is surpressed.
    3. That even with their ability to see the potentialities via the slivers, in their arrogance, again they permit a two front war which prior the Defiants coming back in time actually lead to what amounts to racial cleansing and the loss of Telara to the bloodstorm.

    The only option that does not make the Vigil simply a more handome overlord than the Bloodstorm is option 1.

    I say all this because if Eth tech was truly that bad I believe the Vigil would have said "Yo Zeraph wth are you doing thay stuff is evil and will destroy the world." Remember the messengers were around 20 years ago and they had 19 years to bend Zeraph's ear who according to his own journals was not a personal fan of magitech but saw it as a needed tool in the war. Instead they stand by and allow him to form the uneasy alliance of Orphiel and Cyril and the Defiant's are only born when Zeraph, the lynch pin, is removed from the board.
    The assumption is that they didn't tell Zareph, and it's very likely they did and he was either powerless to do anything or he felt it wasn't a big enough risk. In his journal he laments at a crisis of faith, but ultimately it's not exactly clear what Zareph did or did not hear. He may just have been powerless or unmotivated, up until he challenges his brother which may have just been too late.

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    Ascendant Galibier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maestro Kenteko View Post
    The assumption is that they didn't tell Zareph, and it's very likely they did and he was either powerless to do anything or he felt it wasn't a big enough risk. In his journal he laments at a crisis of faith, but ultimately it's not exactly clear what Zareph did or did not hear. He may just have been powerless or unmotivated, up until he challenges his brother which may have just been too late.
    What you state here however is assumption trying to rationalize a possible oversite on the part of the vigil. If you read Zareph's journal it does not show a crisis of faith he notes his dislike for the technology. The conflict has nothing to do with faith and with his personal sense of honor that initially stopped him from moving against his Brother who was the rightful King by law and tradition. There is nothing to indicate that the Vigil told him to stay away from the tech and certainly nothing that illicits a feeling of having a crisis of faith. Now admittedly my ideas regarding crisis of faith come from sources like the works of Thomas Aquinas but I certainly see nothing in the journals or the lore that indicate that Zareph ever felt so. Simply using the term profane while describing the technology even makes me wonder if this is a legitimate journal or not. I say this because it certainly seems an odd thing for someone to say when their tutor was Orphiel. Even if it is legit though I see a crisis of conscience based on civil law and his brothers right to be king under this law, not a crisis of religious faith.
    Far better is it to dare mighty things, to win glorius triumphs, even though checkered by failure... than to rank with those poor spirits who neither enjoy nor suffer much, because they live in a gray twilight that knows not victory nor defeat.

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    Edit limit.

    There are also other issues with the journal. The days are actually out of order, there is little to no mention of Cyril and Orphiel. All in all it has an appearance of if not a forgery a careful eiditing. Kinda like the history of the Eth book that we find that is the contradicted by the ghost in droughtlands. Add to that there are no indications whatsoever of his distaste for defiant or eth tech when as a defiant you speak to the risen Zareph. He even goes so far as to profess his love for Asha.

    I actually think using him would be a great way to bring in a third faction. People who blindly follow Cyril stay guardian, those who blindly follow Orphiel stay defiant. Those of us who follow Asha and the risen Zareph are the forces of free Telara. All hail the FFT!!
    Far better is it to dare mighty things, to win glorius triumphs, even though checkered by failure... than to rank with those poor spirits who neither enjoy nor suffer much, because they live in a gray twilight that knows not victory nor defeat.

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    Plane Walker Gehrgontra's Avatar
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    Makes sense. After all, one of the best ways to get someone to do something is to tell them not to do it. In this sense, the Vigil told the mortals not to use magitech and to stop any development of it, even though it ended up saving everyone. If we are to believe the Vigil is as omniscient as they are made out to be, then they knew that their declaration would only serve to further the advancement of magitech.

    Another thing to consider; in the original timeline, the Guardians sacked Meridian and scattered the Defiants 9 years after the fall of Port Scion. A further 11 years later, the Defiants finally mastered the replication of ascension... on the very last day of Telara's existence. Of course Orphiel's Failsafe and the dedication of the last Defiants ensured that these so-called Machineborn were able to make it back to the time they were needed most. What bothers me though... it took 8 years for the Guardians to sack Meridian, with the advantage of having ascended whereas the Defiant did not. While Regulos is the only dragon mentioned in the Defiant starting zone, that doesn't mean to me that the Guardians were able to defeat the others; you can see the minions of Maelforge sacking Sanctum in the cinematic. What this means to me is that Regulos was able to use the Guardians to kill some of his siblings, pounce on the ones that were released by the cults once they had served their purpose, and in the end stand as the one to inherit the prize.

    In this timeline, it has been two years since the fall of Port Scion and already two of the bloodstorm dragons are dead, with a third on the way.

    Does this mean that the Guardians were fighting a war they could not hope to win, splitting their limited resources on the cults and the Defiant? That the Vigil is so limited in its ability to Ascend mortals that the only real purpose the Guardians ever had in the previous timeline was to drive the Defiant into perfecting the technology to essentially mass produce the Ascended, and to stave of the end by just long enough?

    I guess we'll see in the years to follow.

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    RIFT Community Ambassador Morvick's Avatar
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    This idea is very sound. But boy, wouldn't it just get under the skin of every Defiant around to know that by their very act of defiance, they are doing exactly what the Vigil foretold that they would? That gives more evidence for an omnipotent Vigil than almost anything else!

    In fact, it's a lot similar to the "There is no evil" argument concerning the Christian God. The problem that arises when you proclaim a God to be omnipotent and all-powerful is that, well, there must be nothing in existence that they do not allow. For Christians, this is mostly Satan and the general strife and pains associated with being mortal -- the only truth is that God allows unadultered "evil" and monstrous nightmares to exist on purpose. Reminds me of the Book of Job, where He demonstrates His near-ambivalence towards the struggles of his mortal followers. The only other option is to concede that God is not totally perfect, which would be hard to swallow for such a devoted flock. This is where the Guardians' Gods differ from Allah/Yahweh/God, in that it's known they are flawed and one-dimensional when alone: there's no illusion of their perfection, but their union as The Five makes them exponentially stronger and more well-rounded.

    Several minor details concerning these posts, though:
    - It doesn't take 20 years to produce a Guardian Ascended. Ser Martyn in Stillmoor was resurrected right before my eyes, with the Ghost of Saint Carwin narrating a vision of Marshall Kain choosing the dark path of his fate.
    - There are no evil magics. As the Guardian questlines clarify, the only Evil is corruption and totality. Death itself is not evil or bad: it refreshes a cycle that might otherwise become stagnant. Warlocks and Cabalists could be some of the most spiritual magic-users around because they'd view life and death as a cycling process, like Buddhists. The reason we kill Greenscale, the avatar of Life, is not to usher in an age of eternal death, but to refresh a cycle that the Dragon has held paused for too long: there is no advancement or change.

    In this regard, aren't all Ascended a corrupting stagnation upon an ever-changing mortal world? Hm, curious indeed!
    Last edited by Morvick; 02-13-2012 at 04:20 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gehrgontra View Post
    Makes sense. After all, one of the best ways to get someone to do something is to tell them not to do it. In this sense, the Vigil told the mortals not to use magitech and to stop any development of it, even though it ended up saving everyone. If we are to believe the Vigil is as omniscient as they are made out to be, then they knew that their declaration would only serve to further the advancement of magitech.

    Another thing to consider; in the original timeline, the Guardians sacked Meridian and scattered the Defiants 9 years after the fall of Port Scion. A further 11 years later, the Defiants finally mastered the replication of ascension... on the very last day of Telara's existence. Of course Orphiel's Failsafe and the dedication of the last Defiants ensured that these so-called Machineborn were able to make it back to the time they were needed most. What bothers me though... it took 8 years for the Guardians to sack Meridian, with the advantage of having ascended whereas the Defiant did not. While Regulos is the only dragon mentioned in the Defiant starting zone, that doesn't mean to me that the Guardians were able to defeat the others; you can see the minions of Maelforge sacking Sanctum in the cinematic. What this means to me is that Regulos was able to use the Guardians to kill some of his siblings, pounce on the ones that were released by the cults once they had served their purpose, and in the end stand as the one to inherit the prize.

    In this timeline, it has been two years since the fall of Port Scion and already two of the bloodstorm dragons are dead, with a third on the way.

    Does this mean that the Guardians were fighting a war they could not hope to win, splitting their limited resources on the cults and the Defiant? That the Vigil is so limited in its ability to Ascend mortals that the only real purpose the Guardians ever had in the previous timeline was to drive the Defiant into perfecting the technology to essentially mass produce the Ascended, and to stave of the end by just long enough?

    I guess we'll see in the years to follow.
    I think the problem that we seem to keep missing is that most timelines are independent of each other. The timeline that the Defiants came from was built under different circumstances then the timeline that all PCs take part in. The information that isn't told to us is where this theory may come from, which as Morvick points out, would just make the Defiants get even more upset as they got shamelessly used.

    Thinking of it that way, the Vigil may have seen that the timeline within Terminus was going to fall when it did, and chosen to effectively point the Guardians at the Defiants and tell them to burn and pillage. Since it wasn't the "real" timeline or something had already been done which rendered it dead in the water, they could have spurred the Guardians into a righteous fervor with the ultimate intent of getting more fighters.

    It actually begs the question of how the Ward works across Slivers. Maybe that would explain why Terminus ended up happening, because the Vigil saw that the Ward was broken beyond repair, and threw the Guardians of that universe into the meat thresher to encourage Magitech research. This can actually create a very unique situation where in the Terminus timeline, Magitech does not draw from the Ward but in our current timeline, it does! That would justify both factions in their action, but if the Defiants find out and don't stop using Magitech (which they won't) then second verse same as first.

    If you think about it, Magitech in the "current" timeline was not as advanced as in Terminus, so it's not too much out of the question that by the Vigil playing the Defiants, they basically skipped twenty years of research to get more troopers. That still doesn't explain Poor Tom (who saw the Guardian's complete victory in the current timeline), nor does it explain other things, but it does create a very interesting mindset to explore.

    My kingdom for some clarity and consistency, though -_-

  12. #12
    Ascendant Galibier's Avatar
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    Well I would say both Defiant and Guardian would be angered perhaps even enraged by such manipulation. I would not however say it makes the Vigil Omniscient. I have lately been rereading the Galactic Mileu books by Julian May. If you like cerebral sci-fi its a good read. In those books there is a race the members of which are millions of years old. They are not omniscient but rather use statistical analysis in what they call a probability latice and throighbthis method makr very accurate predictions as to what will happen. If the Vigil are as intelligent as they seem and can perceice the multitude of slivers they could also perform a similar analysis and determine what action will most likely lead to success.

    As for your view of Ascended, they are only a perversion if they are somehow more permenant than the vigil themselves because if they are not are not the Vigil also a perversion? ;)
    Far better is it to dare mighty things, to win glorius triumphs, even though checkered by failure... than to rank with those poor spirits who neither enjoy nor suffer much, because they live in a gray twilight that knows not victory nor defeat.

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    RIFT Community Ambassador Morvick's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maestro Kenteko View Post
    That still doesn't explain Poor Tom (who saw the Guardian's complete victory in the current timeline)
    Poor Tom was blessed with the power to see all the different Slivers at once, and cursed by Orphiel meddling with his mind. Consider: if you could see a near-infinite set of multiverses overlayed on top of eachother, wouldn't you get a bit confused and mix them up? Tom (an Ascended) may be the strongest prophet that the Guardians have, but because he does not have the mind of a God, he cannot possibly comprehend it all. He blabbers on about timelines that are not actually our own, but if we find the Sliver he's talking about, then lo and behold what Tom has said is really true.
    Who needs Magitech to peer beyond the Wards when you have a destitute lunatic to do it for you? Poor Tom... Poor Telara...

    With the incomprehensible cognitive might that each God must possess (by the nature of their being as is similar to the Dragons: after all, they are not physical creatures, and the bodies we kill are merely shadows on the wall: manifestations), it's easy to conclude that they have masterfully woven a plot to embolden their Guardian ranks with Defiant who were tricked (forced) into fleeing to the past. The Vigil deposit their own Ascended at Divine Landing right when the Defiants return from Terminus, if you remember. Nearly the same exact moment as when that time portal was turned on. Coincidence? Impossible.
    Quote Originally Posted by Zinbik View Post
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    Pretty much what Moirvick says. Look at it this way. First you have to acknowledge that what was refered to here...

    Thinking of it that way, the Vigil may have seen that the timeline within Terminus was going to fall when it did, and chosen to effectively point the Guardians at the Defiants and tell them to burn and pillage. Since it wasn't the "real" timeline or something had already been done which rendered it dead in the water, they could have spurred the Guardians into a righteous fervor with the ultimate intent of getting more fighters.
    WAS our real timeline right up until the Defiant Ascended were sent back. This very act turned the future of this timeline into a sliver in order to prevent a temporal paradox. Until the discovery of Quantum Sight the Defiant had no concept of the Slivers. As such their fail safe device was locked to this single time line. As there are likely a near infinite number of Slivers the Vigil saw that simply a Guardian or a Defiant force was inadequete that two were needed BUT as they are limited in how many they can ascend how do they get more?

    Now with that out of the way we know that the Vigil can see and comprehend the multitude of slivers. They see the causes and results of these realities. They then basically do what we would call a statistical analysis to determine the actions that will most likely lead to the out come that they prefer. So while to an extent it creates it's own paradox of sorts, the Vigil chose to create a situation where the Defiant accelerated their technological advancement and create other Ascended.

    The only question I haven't addressed yet with my thought process was this. Was the death of Zeraph (at least for the short term, who knows what the River of Souls Chronicle HEralds, if anything) planned in order to create such an extreme impetus for the Defiant to eventually create their own ascended or was this something that slipped past their probability analysis and was not intended so that they had a grudgingly united Defiant/Guardian front.
    Far better is it to dare mighty things, to win glorius triumphs, even though checkered by failure... than to rank with those poor spirits who neither enjoy nor suffer much, because they live in a gray twilight that knows not victory nor defeat.

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    RIFT Community Ambassador Morvick's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Galibier View Post
    The only question I haven't addressed yet with my thought process was this. Was the death of Zeraph (at least for the short term, who knows what the River of Souls Chronicle HEralds, if anything) planned in order to create such an extreme impetus for the Defiant to eventually create their own ascended or was this something that slipped past their probability analysis and was not intended so that they had a grudgingly united Defiant/Guardian front.
    I don't think so. Anything that the Defiants and Guardians could accomplish alone, they could have done faster and better united under Zareph. Keep in mind that the Gods were willing to bless the warriors who were with Zareph even though those soldiers were allowing the use of Magitech. They would gain little by destroying a beneficial alliance between their disparate subjects and worshipers.

    Zareph's death was Alsbeth's doing, not the Gods'. Unfortunately enough, Alsbeth had friends on the other side, too.
    Last edited by Morvick; 02-13-2012 at 06:16 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Zinbik View Post
    I also made other enhancements to certain aspects of the game for various reasons.

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