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Thread: Wait, as a Guardian, did I die twice in the begining?

  1. #1
    Telaran
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    Default Wait, as a Guardian, did I die twice in the begining?

    In the opening cut-scene it says "this was the day we all died". And you become an Ascended. But don't you die again at the end of the starting area and come back 20 years later?

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    RIFT Community Ambassador Morvick's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by donjn View Post
    In the opening cut-scene it says "this was the day we all died". And you become an Ascended. But don't you die again at the end of the starting area and come back 20 years later?
    Before you reach Divine Landing in Silverwood, you have died twice.

    Once before ever seeing your character: that's the Messenger of the Vigil delivering you to the Guardian sanctuary in Old Mathosia.

    Again as you shatter the corpse of Regulos with a Hammer of Holy Light, which nearly tears your soul apart (and also creates the Eye of Regulos, which you can visit in Stillmoor).

    It takes the Vigil nearly 20 years to bring you back to working order, and/or they keep you in stasis for that length of time until depositing you at a critical moment in time -- right when the Defiant Ascended are returning from their Future, Terminus.
    Last edited by Morvick; 02-08-2012 at 01:04 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Zinbik View Post
    I also made other enhancements to certain aspects of the game for various reasons.

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    Telaran
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    Thanks Morvick
    I was hoping it would be you who responds,. Your really know your Rift lore...

    I have been playing a while but just wanted to double check.
    Last edited by donjn; 02-08-2012 at 01:05 PM.

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    Ascendant Galibier's Avatar
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    What kind of disturbed me though was this. I got the impression NOT that I died in battle with Regulos but rather that the Vigil killed me. It seemed like they wanted to make sure the "right" people got ascended and if that meant they had to kill a few people in order to have the opportunity to raise them as ascended, well thems the breaks. There is that angel even that basically tells you "are you prepared to die now" after you shut down Orphiel's machine. I found that just as creepy as the vampiric soul machine on the defiant side, it was simply a different kind of creepy.
    Last edited by Galibier; 02-08-2012 at 01:07 PM.
    Far better is it to dare mighty things, to win glorius triumphs, even though checkered by failure... than to rank with those poor spirits who neither enjoy nor suffer much, because they live in a gray twilight that knows not victory nor defeat.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Galibier View Post
    What kind of disturbed me though was this. I got the impression NOT that I died in battle with Regulos but rather that the Vigil killed me. It seemed like they wanted to make sure the "right" people got ascended and if that meant they had to kill a few people in order to have the opportunity to raise them as ascended, well thems the breaks.
    Wait are you talking about death #1 or #2? lol

    Death #2 was with the "Shade" of Regulos. The "are you prepared to die now" happens after your first death, before your 2nd.
    You get ascended after your first death so I think you are combining both deaths into one.
    Last edited by donjn; 02-08-2012 at 01:12 PM.

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    I think the first death is like: okay a bunch of people died, we don;t have the capability or the energy or spirit to resurrect them all, however, we can resurrect one of you with the souls of several..

    You just hit the 20% lottery chance, that's all.

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    RIFT Community Ambassador Morvick's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Galibier View Post
    What kind of disturbed me though was this. I got the impression NOT that I died in battle with Regulos but rather that the Vigil killed me. It seemed like they wanted to make sure the "right" people got ascended and if that meant they had to kill a few people in order to have the opportunity to raise them as ascended, well thems the breaks. There is that angel even that basically tells you "are you prepared to die now" after you shut down Orphiel's machine. I found that just as creepy as the vampiric soul machine on the defiant side, it was simply a different kind of creepy.
    The Guardian Ascension is leagues different from Defiant Ascension, despite them each achieving the same thing.
    Guardians are treated to a peaceful and graceful process, returning with resplendence and serenity. It's calm, it's rewarding. You get a choice: "Do you want to come back? We'll forgive all your past misdeeds if you do, and you can share in our power. You need only fight the wars that we cannot." That sort of thing.
    Defiant, on the other hand, basically have a rebirth as traumatic and painful as their first -- wrought with pure surges of power and the screams of souls who may not necessarily want to be included in a new Defiant body, but are more subjugated than integrated. Their very rebirth is meant to show them that they need to save the world at any cost.

    So when the Messenger tells you that you are prepared to die, it's because she knows that's what must be done -- your second death, your sacrifice, is the only means to purge Regulos and send him back beyond the Ward. The Guardian's task, then, is to face that fate with a calm demeanor and with trust that the Vigil will see them through, or at least make their second death not as painful as their first.
    When you drop the hammer on Regulos, time slows immeasurably: that explosion is immediately taking place, but the Messenger raises you up before your obliteration is complete, saving what scraps she can so that you can be reconstituted and reborn, a second time, at Divine Landing.

    Personally I see the act of facing death peacefully to be the greatest display of strength that anyone can display. No genius, no might of body or mind, can ever come close to that ultimate victory of defeating the fear of death in yourself.
    (Pro tip: watch the movie "The Fountain" and you'll understand the underpinnings of that philosophy)
    Last edited by Morvick; 02-08-2012 at 01:28 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Zinbik View Post
    I also made other enhancements to certain aspects of the game for various reasons.

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    Ascendant Galibier's Avatar
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    Oh no I get the philosophy you are noting but here is how I saw it from reading what lore was available before I could play beta.

    Short form... the greatest of Telaras heroes risen to fight again. So I saw the Guardian Ascended as sort of Warriors decended from Valhalla. I am thinking warriors from all different time periods , potentially all the way back to the first invasion by the Bloodstorm.

    Then I see what we have here and while you do indeed meet your final death with peaceful dignity there is the point that they basically said "you, not him, you die in order to be risen again." Why him and not me? Is it because I am a better mage (my Guardian is a mage)? Is it because I am a "better man" at heart? Is it because I am ideologically correct?

    So we have 2 factors. They do not simply raise the best and the brightest who died in battle. The single out specific individuals to die tobthen be ascended. For all we know it is even necessary for them to slay us in a particular manner in order for us to be ascended. You then combine this with the fact that the Vigil is not omniscient. If they were the end that the defiant see would not come to pass (unless they have a hidden motive and wanted the war to be lost.) Because of this it is unlikely I am chosen because they have forseen that I would be a "better" ascended than say Bob. It is following the various options of "why" that i get creeped out.

    I am not saying that I think one method of ascension is any better (sorry if it came off that way) I just think both have equally problematic questions regarding morals and ethics, they are simply different questions.
    Far better is it to dare mighty things, to win glorius triumphs, even though checkered by failure... than to rank with those poor spirits who neither enjoy nor suffer much, because they live in a gray twilight that knows not victory nor defeat.

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    RIFT Community Ambassador Morvick's Avatar
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    The real issue at heart with what you're saying is, I can never figure out if there are Thousands of Ascended or if there's One.
    That's the issue with MMOs, they exist perpetually in a state of NOW. It's always the present, and only your Quest Log belies any movement of time.
    (No no, go past this part. In fact, never play it again!)

    In Terminus, by all inferred logic there is only one Ascended who makes it through the Death Rift Portal with the Ascension Plans, and yet no sooner do you plop into the present does one guard go, "Look Quincy! There's another one!"
    Huh?! I thought I was a special snowflake!!

    Same issue with the Guardians in Old Mathosia. Clearly only one person ever gets the chance to smash Regulos' body, and yet you arrive to a chorus of even more "Look, by the Gods! Another Ascended!"
    It's all very... schizophrenic.

    But to look at the meat of your concern, I hear you that the question remains "How do you choose who goes off to die in battle against Regulos?"
    It's not that the Vigil only Ascends those who slay Regulos in Old Mathosia. Indeed killing a Dragon God in human form is nothing to laugh at, but the Vigil also protects Chyla, Borrin, and Cyril from your fate: they shield them and charge these three with ruling over the Guardians and providing leadership, and to accept guidance from the Messengers.

    But really, who can say what decision matrix the Messenger used? She certainly didn't want to send a mortal against Regulos, that had clearly failed in the past. Only by sending the strength of three in the body of one could there be hope to stop the fiend, and even then it (used to be) could be a tough fight to beat.

    In tons of lore where Defiant and Guardians clash, whenever a retreat is called, it always sounds like "Ascended only, hold them! Rest of you, retreat!!" When someone can die an indefinite number of times and always come back, you realize that to be an asset that you can use. Sure, send the Ascended on a suicide mission! She'll be back!

    So it's not really a question of who is "better". There's some great fan-fiction floating around from the perspective of a Mortal who tries to figure out how to interact with the Ascended. The Guardian Ascended, at least, have the appointed task of acting like Prophets. Only they can see all of the Messengers in Sanctum. Only they have felt death and returned to tell about it. Only they can shoulder the weight and power of ten souls and not be turned mad by it. The "Faithful" who wander Sanctum constantly ask these Ascended for advice and clarification on what the Vigil wants from them. They are often seen as teachers, not superior warriors, though the latter often proves to be true anyway.

    Thankfully, the Vigil does not grade on prowess alone: strength of character and perseverance have gotten a few people Ascended who by all counts actually failed their military missions miserably and died agonizing deaths full of shame. It's not about who is "better", it's about who strives to become better.

    Like Marshall Kain said, and despite who he has become I agree with this: "Make yourself worthy of your gifts."
    Quote Originally Posted by Zinbik View Post
    I also made other enhancements to certain aspects of the game for various reasons.

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    RIFT Community Ambassador Morvick's Avatar
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    I misspelled "Shyla" with a C. I'll be back in 2 hours after I flay myself.

    *Curses the demigods of Edit Timers and phonetic spelling*
    Quote Originally Posted by Zinbik View Post
    I also made other enhancements to certain aspects of the game for various reasons.

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    Ascendant Galibier's Avatar
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    Oh I know there is a difference. The Guardians are seen like some religious orders as they were in the middle ages (the Hospitallers of St. John of Jerusalem come to mind, now called the Knights of Malta.) when the defiant are seen more like say John Connor in the Terminator series.

    It's just that much of my education revolved around philosophies, I was a history/poli sci double major, so I tend to really want to dig in and find the motives and meat behind these things.
    Far better is it to dare mighty things, to win glorius triumphs, even though checkered by failure... than to rank with those poor spirits who neither enjoy nor suffer much, because they live in a gray twilight that knows not victory nor defeat.

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    RIFT Community Ambassador Morvick's Avatar
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    I won't claim any formal education beyond my Psychology degree and life experience.

    Anyway, we've gotten OP's topic a little far afield, though I guess now that his question has been answered it's alright?

    One of these days I'll get a Defiant toon past 15, but it's just so... odd. I really never look forward to logging on and seeing Freemarch, nor hearing the NPCs tote on about how much better they are than the Guardians just because they know Magitech. Seems a bit hypocritical when put in contrast of the Guardians who belittle the Defiant Ascended as "replicating life", but the Guardian NPCs also speak a LOT more about finding your inner Nirvana.
    They seem to actually concern themselves with how they do things, not just what they do.
    Quote Originally Posted by Zinbik View Post
    I also made other enhancements to certain aspects of the game for various reasons.

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    Ascendant Galibier's Avatar
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    Lol we have gone a tad off track. Also a wierd coincidence. I am now working on finishing a Forensic Psyche program, didn't get some cushy gig on the History Channel so I am a Police officer with a desire to understand why people commit crime. O guess it's more a personality thing "I" just need to know the whys period lol.

    I do agree with the difference in philosophy. Sometimes I feel the devs are beating us with a baseball bat and I want to say "guys we get it, the defiant are the archtypical self reliant people who see themselves as the framers of their own destiny and the guardians place their faith in the vigil and are but servants for the destiny the vigil has laid before them. Can we get on with the show? :P"
    Far better is it to dare mighty things, to win glorius triumphs, even though checkered by failure... than to rank with those poor spirits who neither enjoy nor suffer much, because they live in a gray twilight that knows not victory nor defeat.

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    Telaran
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    I don't know why but Morvick seems like such a likeable person. Maybe I am just in a good mood because I am leaving work in 10 minutes, ready to hop on my Guardian toons on Faeblight and go at it!

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    Telaran
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    Actually guys while we are at it lets talk about what Trion has been hinting at. Driving a wedge through the factions? What do you they mean by this future change?

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