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Thread: Defiant vs Guardian: What did you pick and why?

  1. #1
    Soulwalker
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    Default Defiant vs Guardian: What did you pick and why?

    Exactly as the title says. Did you pick your faction for itself? For the races? For the religion?

    And for those of you playing both sides, which parts of each faction appeals to you? Which could you do without? How do you feel playing a Defiant or Guardian is fundamentally different (in your own mind)?

  2. #2
    Plane Walker Kreiri's Avatar
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    I picked Defiant.

    When I started playing, I rolled one Defiant and one Guardian character.

    I did not have a preference for any side - until my Guardian character found herself at Divine Landing and heard what Guardian NPCs were saying.

    "How dare those cowards to defend against our army!"
    "Defiants are cowards for not standing there while our army slaughters them!"
    "Defiants destroyed bridge with our army on it! Vile, cowardly heretics!"

    These NPCs did very good job of presenting Guardians as spoiled, incompetent jerks full of self-entitlement. Hazing quests at Quicksilver College didn't do any good to Guardians' image either.
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    Champion Remissus's Avatar
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    I picked Guardian, after seeing exactly how Defiant Ascended get their powers in the starting area. Ripping souls out of defeated and caged enemies while they beg for their lives? No thanks. Made me feel like a villain, and set the tone for the whole rest of the tutorial for me. And based on what I've seen in videos of quests from friends? Defiant-side does plenty of things that are along this line, and I want no part in it. >_>

    Guardian-side's not perfect either, but somehow I can stomach their imperfections easier.
    Last edited by Remissus; 02-07-2012 at 09:03 AM.



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    Actually it was the section at Divine Landing that soured me towards the Guardians as well. All the NPC Guardians calling the Defiants cowards and generally trying to play the victim in the whole affair because the Defiants had defended themselves from their attempted military invasion.

    I just felt that their reaction was almost... childish. And it became too hard to take the Guardians very seriously after that and I ended up settling into the Defiants instead.
    Last edited by Kedon; 02-07-2012 at 09:43 AM.

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    Ascendant Tufelhunden's Avatar
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    I rolled Guardian as I knew the game would be defiant heavy. And until mercs came out it paid off handsomely in a lot of aspects.

    I also now like the Guardian lore better, I have tried a defiant 3 or 4 times now and just cannot get into that story. As someone else said ripping other peoples souls to power Defiant gear. Nah. Just feels wrong. It's an end justifies the means mentality, so I guess I got lucky with my initial choice.

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    Ascendant Galibier's Avatar
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    After I played through both sides I leaned defiant because I saw way to many parallels between the Guardians and Christian Europe during the Crusades. Hell the Vigil didn't even ascend Zeraph, a person who pre-Ascended was powerful enough to bottle up Port Scion, because he saw a use for magitech in fighting Regulos. Imagine him Ascended if he was that powerful when mortal. But nope, adherence to dogma > than victory against Regulos.

    Also as a Defiant I saw the people who were foolish enough to fight a two front war als^o go to the point of racial cleansing when they destroyed Meridian. Now yes, it is disturbing that my powers were drained from the spirit of an Ascended Guardian, but that was to my mind justice. He was a homicidal lunatic that slaughtered innocent women and children for heresy. Taking power from him so I can go back and not see innocent women and children slaughtered because I had the power to stop it is a no brainer for me.

    Now the Defiant are as equally extreme as the Guardians, don't think I do not see this. That said, I will take the extremist born from watching their people slaughtered in the name of religious fanaticism over the extremist who would slaughter innocent women and children in the name of religion any day of the week. What annoyed me about this the most is that I prefer the general framework of the guardians To the defiants. The mysticism, instead of magitech, the appearance of the starting zones, even the music of the guardian zonesbut I just couldn't deal with the blind adherence to the dogma that resulted in the above issues.
    Last edited by Galibier; 02-07-2012 at 08:59 PM.
    Far better is it to dare mighty things, to win glorius triumphs, even though checkered by failure... than to rank with those poor spirits who neither enjoy nor suffer much, because they live in a gray twilight that knows not victory nor defeat.

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    Plane Touched Akamhara's Avatar
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    I went with Guardian, though I hop on Defiant side now and again. Much as others have said with soul ripping etc, that was a bit uneasy with me! As for the rigid fanaticism, I laughed when it came to Chronicles and it all goes out the window to justify a win! Both sides are hypocritical, and both sides are not above working together or with questionable methods when the result is deemed worth it.

    As for Guardians slaughtering the innocents, you've also got the Defiants in the Guardian start zone helping crack the ward and unleash the Shade and utterly wrecking a country, turning lots and lots and oooh, lots of people into corrupted/undead/mindless minions. It bounces back and forth
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    Quote Originally Posted by Galibier View Post
    After I played through both sides I leaned defiant because I saw way to many parallels between the Guardians and Christian Europe during the Crusades. Hell the Vigil didn't even ascend Zeraph, a person who pre-Ascended was powerful enough to bottle up Port Scion, because he saw a use for magitech in fighting Regulos. Imagine him Ascended if he was that powerful when mortal. But nope, adherence to dogma > than victory against Regulos.
    Perhaps the Vigil feels that magitech is this cause of the destruction of the ward that kept the dragons out of Telara and to have someone that powerful advocating its use could lead to bad things?

    Actually, you know what? I'm pretty sure that's canon.

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    RIFT Community Ambassador Morvick's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Proin Drakenzol View Post
    Perhaps the Vigil feels that magitech is this cause of the destruction of the ward that kept the dragons out of Telara and to have someone that powerful advocating its use could lead to bad things?

    Actually, you know what? I'm pretty sure that's canon.
    And that's why I can't go Defiant. I don't want to be part of the Faction that is responsible for the Shade.

    That's why it's funny to me whenever Defiants try to play victim in a quest or lore. They are nobody's victim: the very situation that we are all dealing with is directly enabled because of the Defaints' overbearing lust for power.

    Akamhara, if you're referring to when Atrophinius is resurrected by Shyla in Greenscale's Blight, that's perfectly in-line with Guardian dogma. Only Greenscale is the evil, and of course those who follow him. But once purged of the Dragon's influence, a Planar Creature enters back on the same level as any Telaran creature to be respected (thus, a potential ally for the Guardians). Do you remember Deeps from the Hammerknell World Event, who was severed from the influence of Akylios? Or how about the dozens of Planar Creatures that you encounter as a Guardian on Ember Isle who are friendly, mostly because they are not corrupted by Dragons.

    Something that is very Telling to me is that in the River of Souls, Asha Catari would go to any lengths to resurrect Zareph (who, as it turns out, cannot become Ascended due to damage rendered onto his Soul). Cyril stops them, and this seems stupid at first, except when it's revealed that a resurrected Prince Zareph would more-closely resemble some shade-touched abomination or monstrosity. It would not be a life worth living, and therefore, that life should never be given. Even Zareph agrees with this sentiment during the RoS Chronicle.

    "I would rather be blinded by the light of the Vigil than stumble in the darkness you would create, Asha."
    Last edited by Morvick; 02-08-2012 at 06:41 AM.
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    Ascendant Galibier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Proin Drakenzol View Post
    Perhaps the Vigil feels that magitech is this cause of the destruction of the ward that kept the dragons out of Telara and to have someone that powerful advocating its use could lead to bad things?

    Actually, you know what? I'm pretty sure that's canon.
    Well it is also part of the canon that without magitech the first bloodstorm would have won. Magitech really is no different than technology today. Nuclear power could destroy the world. Without radiology however how many more people would die a year? To me saying magitech in general is wrong is a strawman argument to conceal the real issue. Magitech arguably makes the creations of the Vigil their equals and this is the problem. Yes through deception the mad king had the ward shattered using magitech but imo this is no different than terrorists making a dirty bomb by stealing radioactive material from a hospital. You do not ban x-ray machines and radiation cancer therapies because of this threat. More importantly after you decide such treatments are wrong you do not slaughter innocent women and children in the name of doing away with it (a fact pro-guardian people often to ignore.)

    Also you do NOT fight a two front war. Post WW-II people were asked "were you prematurely anti-fascist" during the "Red Scare" and before WW-II people supporting the anti-fascists in Spain were often seen as Communists. However when we were attacked by the Axis we aligned with the Communists because the enemy of my enemy is my friend. Only after WW-II did we went back to hostilities against the Communists.

    Look at it this way. Picture us going to war against the Axis and that instead of aligning with Stalin while fighting Hitler we also decided to invade Russia via the Baltic and when we did we just killed every man women and child we encountered in Soviet Cities. Sorry you can rationalize it all you want...

    I remember a line from a TV series years ago. In the episode there was a homicidal religious fanatic. It was said at the end "faith taken to the point of fanaticism becomes a lie."
    Far better is it to dare mighty things, to win glorius triumphs, even though checkered by failure... than to rank with those poor spirits who neither enjoy nor suffer much, because they live in a gray twilight that knows not victory nor defeat.

  11. #11
    RIFT Community Ambassador Morvick's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Galibier View Post
    I remember a line from a TV series years ago. In the episode there was a homicidal religious fanatic. It was said at the end "faith taken to the point of fanaticism becomes a lie."
    And yet it's equally foolish, if not more dangerous, to take a desire for power to it's own extreme. That's what Magitech enables, and through the Lore, that's been the caliber of person who uses it. Even well-intentioned Orphiel fell to the desires of his student's lust for power, and gave him everything he needed to destroy the world.

    Pro-Defiants make their argument FOR the use of dangerous technologies by saying "if we don't win by any means, we won't win at all." Of course this isn't true, but even if it were: what then? What about the day after Regulos is killed by a Magitech Missile? I certainly wouldn't want to live in a world ruled by people with such a terrible power, whose whims and fancies I could only speculate on. Would they seek a kingdom after they defeated the Planespawn? Would they recreate the destructive potential of the Ancient Eth?

    I know that I could never trust them to use that power responsibly, and so they should not have that power. The Vigil Gods, to their credit, keep their own power and direct influence divorced from Telara, which cannot be said of the corrupting and destructive Bloodstorm.
    (You can tell my objections to the Defiant philosophy go a little beyond the game, lol)
    Nuclear power is great (your analogue to Magitech), I have a family member who worked in the field, but there wasn't a day of his life that he didn't fear for the family's safety.
    Last edited by Morvick; 02-08-2012 at 07:21 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Zinbik View Post
    I also made other enhancements to certain aspects of the game for various reasons.

  12. #12
    Ascendant Galibier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Morvick View Post

    "I would rather be blinded by the light of the Vigil than stumble in the darkness you would create, Asha."
    And yet in the Defiant Chronicle he simply says he would be neither a mortal or ascended but a specter and that he does not wish to be such regardless of his love for Telara and Asha. It is also FAR from clear that ascension would not have worked for him and that his state as a Specter was only due to the method Alsebeth used to raise him.

    This is actually my main issue with the game and how they treat lore. I have no issue with the books etc. being a bit of propoganda. That happens even irl. That said when you run into an actual person, his personality and his reactions should be consistent regardless of your faction. Having certain NPC's being essentially split personalities is horrible for immersion.

    So a more appropriate line for the Guardian chronicle should have been "I have been cursed by this foul resurection. I am neither ascended nor mortal, I am but a shade. Regardless of my love for her and Telara I can not go with you..."

    Instead on the one side he is a religious fanatic on the other he is a romantic tragic hero who would not return to Telara if he could not properly hold the woman that he loves. It is just bad writing imo.
    Far better is it to dare mighty things, to win glorius triumphs, even though checkered by failure... than to rank with those poor spirits who neither enjoy nor suffer much, because they live in a gray twilight that knows not victory nor defeat.

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    RIFT Community Ambassador Morvick's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Galibier View Post
    Instead on the one side he is a religious fanatic on the other he is a romantic tragic hero who would not return to Telara if he could not properly hold the woman that he loves. It is just bad writing imo.
    Er, that quote was from Cyril Kalmar in the 10-man Raid. >_>
    I'm fairly certain that Zareph said the same thing to both Guardians and Defiants, except that he commends Cyril on his amazing leadership skills and how proud Zareph is to call him a fellow Mathosian.
    I'm sure he totes on about Asha in the Defiant Chronicle, comparatively.
    Last edited by Morvick; 02-08-2012 at 07:24 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Zinbik View Post
    I also made other enhancements to certain aspects of the game for various reasons.

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    Ascendant Galibier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Morvick View Post
    And yet it's equally foolish, if not more dangerous, to take a desire for power to it's own extreme. That's what Magitech enables, and through the Lore, that's been the caliber of person who uses it. Even well-intentioned Orphiel fell to the desires of his student's lust for power, and gave him everything he needed to destroy the world.

    Pro-Defiants make their argument FOR the use of dangerous technologies by saying "if we don't win by any means, we won't win at all." Of course this isn't true, but even if it were: what then? What about the day after Regulos is killed by a Magitech Missile? I certainly wouldn't want to live in a world ruled by people with such a terrible power, whose whims and fancies I could only speculate on. Would they seek a kingdom after they defeated the Planespawn? Would they recreate the destructive potential of the Ancient Eth?

    I know that I could never trust them to use that power responsibly, and so they should not have that power.
    (You can tell my objections to the Defiant philosophy go a little beyond the game, lol)
    Nuclear power is great (your analogue to Magitech), I have a family member who worked in the field, but there wasn't a day of his life that he didn't fear for the family's safety.
    And we face the same challenges every day irl. The trick is to be inclusive and set up rules to regulate dangerous technologies. Outlawing technologies in the violent fashion that the Guardians do only drives the technology underground and makes it harder to identify the bad from the good. When you allow it to feel the light of day you can then split the hairs and better eliminate the bad.

    Again though you are essentially saying "magitech can be bad so if we have to kill the unarmed mother and the infant she is holding to smash to robo-pony so be it. FOR THE VIGIL!!!"

    This is basically what the lore seems to indicate.

    1. Blood storm comes.
    2. With the aid of magic tech blood storm defeated.
    3. Ward created
    4. Vigil begins to outlaw magitech
    5. Magitech is directly used to destroy the ward.
    6. Guardians begin two front war.
    7. Guardians burn meridianslaughtering the inhabitants regardless of age and sex.
    8. Defiant sent back in time and world destroyed by blood storm at the same time.

    It is number 4 that is the issue. It appears that the initial reason is that source stone is sacred to or the actual source of power of the Vigil. So it seems that intially at least the concern in not for the ward but either A. The use of magitech reduces their power or perhaps simply messes with what the vigil sees as the balance of power between them and their,"creations." There were of course things like the destruction of the Eth Empire but who in the world knows what the result would have been if magitech was treated inclusively rather than outlawed. It seems VERY foolish to expect people to A. accept and B. for anything good to come from branding the technology that helped to save the world in the first place, the outlawing as heretical magitech.
    Far better is it to dare mighty things, to win glorius triumphs, even though checkered by failure... than to rank with those poor spirits who neither enjoy nor suffer much, because they live in a gray twilight that knows not victory nor defeat.

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    Ascendant Galibier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Morvick View Post
    Er, that quote was from Cyril Kalmar in the 10-man Raid. >_>
    I'm fairly certain that Zareph said the same thing to both Guardians and Defiants, except that he commends Cyril on his amazing leadership skills and how proud Zareph is to call him a fellow Mathosian.
    I'm sure he totes on about Asha in the Defiant Chronicle, comparatively.
    10 man raid? Of what are you speaking. Zareph never shows up in the 20 and only shows up in the Chronicle to my knowledge. Cyril of course says Zareph if raised would be an abomination. He thinks the defiant ascended are abomination so it really isn't relevant imo to the point you are trying to make. He is the poster child of blind fanaticsm in the name of the Vigil so what he says is simply propoganda.
    Last edited by Galibier; 02-08-2012 at 07:40 AM.
    Far better is it to dare mighty things, to win glorius triumphs, even though checkered by failure... than to rank with those poor spirits who neither enjoy nor suffer much, because they live in a gray twilight that knows not victory nor defeat.

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