imbalance between Defiants and Guardians

[Maeloda]

The Endless Court existed since the Blood Storm wars.

Yup!

So did:

-Wanton (them being mostly planar, and a general menace)
-Golden Maw (having been an Ethian Empire problem)
-Storm Legion (Crucia was up to no good with her slaves)
-I'm pretty sure the Abyssal existed in different cabals ever since Akylios landed on Telara..

The Aelfwar may be a new thing.

[Xerokine]

You mean the endless court who were released into telera using Ethian technology used by an Eth (aka orphiel)?

The Endless Court refers to those humans who willingly serve Regulos as part of his cult. The Mathosian nobility was rather infested with such people, and there were mass executions from time to time where nobles were hung beside beggars; cultists all. Until the Shade, they were basically nothing more than a 'normal' death cult who worshiped a trapped god, performing blood rituals and murderous sacrifices to accept new members.

[Lutinz]

This is sort of drifiting away from the question that was asked at the beginning.

Anyway the fundimental conflict between the Guardians and Defiants is around Magitech. Magitech isnt the only form of technology available. The Guardians are quite well placed in their understanding of other technologies. Construction, Manufacturing, and even things like agriculture are comfortably equal.

Whats more is having active and present gods allows their influence to be worked into said technology. The Blessing of the Gods can have tangable benifits. Their are several times in questing where use devices created using reagents that have been prepared by having them sancified at shrines. These options arent usually open to the defiants.

The problem is mainly one of perception. I can think of several reasons for it. In game presence as well as notable figures. Their is no major scholarly lore figures that the Guardians can point to. Then again the Guardian lore figures often lack the level of personal connection you get with Defiant ones.

[Dustfinger]

Following Lutinz example:

The Guardians aren't at a disadvantage. When the Eth empire fell, they turned to the people of the mountains for help (Mathosian empire). The Mathosians followers of Theodor were known for their warrior culture and marched down into Eth territory to make war.

The only thing the Eth and Mathisians disagree on is why they stayed to rule Eth lands. We have two diffrent interpretations.

Mathisian:
We could have gone back home, but they begged us, “Stay! Rule us with courage and justice, and teach us never again to kneel.” So we remained to rule the flat places. Those who did not invite us, we came into their lands anyway, for we would let no spot in Telara fall prey to the dragons’ wiles. Then the sun never shone on any part of Telara that was not Mathosia.
http://www.riftgame.com/en/world/history/mathosia.php

Eth:
Without our glorious magitech, we returned to wandering the deserts. Our former subject peoples reviled us and would not take us in, so we took shelter with our noble allies, the Bahmi.

During our empire’s final days, tribes of unwashed brutes came down from the northern mountains. Loving the gods as fiercely as they hated science, these Mathosians would build an empire of order but no wonder.
http://www.riftgame.com/en/world/history/eth-empire.php

I suspect it was a combinantion of both. After the fall of the Eth empire, some turned to the Northmen for help. The Mathosians answered the call and when the war ended, the "subject peoples" wanted them to stay since they obviously had no love for the former ruling class.

All in all, the Mathosians are not a backward people with an out dated way of life in this lore. They are a powerfull people backed by actual and active gods. Gods that expect the races they created to have a large part in the care and defense of their world.

Historically in lore, once the Mathosians gathered their strength, they were more effective than the Eth empire at the height of its power. Keeping in mind the Eth were targeted by surprise while the Mathosians had the ability to prepare, I'm only setting out to prove that the full Mathosian strength was at least comparable to the Eth empire at the height of their power. Now, both empire have been decimated so I'm not going to take a side in the Defiant/Guardian pissing contest.

[Xerokine]

Historically in lore, once the Mathosians gathered their strength, they were more effective than the Eth empire at the height of its power. Keeping in mind the Eth were targeted by surprise while the Mathosians had the ability to prepare, I'm only setting out to prove that the full Mathosian strength was at least comparable to the Eth empire at the height of their power. Now, both empire have been decimated so I'm not going to take a side in the Defiant/Guardian pissing contest.

Well, there's no evidence of that, though. The Mathosians invaded the south only after the Convocation failed, destroying the entire Eth Empire - all their infrastructure and most of their population were gone. I have no idea how that counts as "the height of its power" for the Mathosians to 'conquer' bands of refugees wandering the desert desperately searching for aid.

Given the descriptions we have of the Eth Empire at the height of its power - "...we made the desert flower, raised roads of glass above the sand, and built towers that scraped the scorching sky..." - I doubt the Mathosians could even compare. "In polished sandstone towers, amid the thunder of great machines, these geniuses crafted tiny worlds of living diamond, enslaved the paragons of the planes, and built weapons that could slay bloodlines with a flick of the wrist." Yeah, definitely couldn't even compare.

Mathosia is basically your typical 'medieval fantasy' country. Castles and kings, knights and squires, praying to gods who do minor miracles but never directly interfere. Their most powerful weapon of war is a catapult or a sword. Against the Eth Empire at its peak, when it was fully capable of Ascending literally it's entire population? Nah.

[Dustfinger]

Well, there's no evidence of that, though. The Mathosians invaded the south only after the Convocation failed, destroying the entire Eth Empire - all their infrastructure and most of their population were gone. I have no idea how that counts as "the height of its power" for the Mathosians to 'conquer' bands of refugees wandering the desert desperately searching for aid.

Given the descriptions we have of the Eth Empire at the height of its power - "...we made the desert flower, raised roads of glass above the sand, and built towers that scraped the scorching sky..." - I doubt the Mathosians could even compare. "In polished sandstone towers, amid the thunder of great machines, these geniuses crafted tiny worlds of living diamond, enslaved the paragons of the planes, and built weapons that could slay bloodlines with a flick of the wrist." Yeah, definitely couldn't even compare.

Mathosia is basically your typical 'medieval fantasy' country. Castles and kings, knights and squires, praying to gods who do minor miracles but never directly interfere. Their most powerful weapon of war is a catapult or a sword. Against the Eth Empire at its peak, when it was fully capable of Ascending literally it's entire population? Nah.

The evidence I use for that isn't that the Mathosians took controle after the Eth were already decimated. I look at similar situations for both empires. for example: The Eth were taken by surprise and failed against the dragons when the Empire was at it's height. The Mathosian empire was put in a similar situation the second time the dragons invaded. With Mathosian ways, the dragon uprising was being put down until the traitor king used Eth tech to change the equation. So, in a similar situation, Mathosian ways were actually pretty effective. Now this similar situation isn't exactlly the same but it at least shows the two empires as comparable when dealing with a common enemy. As far a flowers and crystal worlds, that is simply a diffrence in culture that the Eth seem to acknowlege the Mathosians have no intereest in when they talk about the empire of order but no wonder. The Mathosians may be classically midevil fantasy, but they definatly aren't at a disadvantage in RIFT lore when compared to the Eth. Midevil fantasy ways seem to be comparably effective here.

Also, the Eth were never fully capable of acending it's entire populaion. Your trying to intriduce what "might be" when we can easily counter that with what the Vigil "might do". I'm only talking about the evidence we've seen put in action.

[Xerokine]

Also, the Eth were never fully capable of acending it's entire populaion. Your trying to intriduce what "might be" when we can easily counter that with what the Vigil "might do". I'm only talking about the evidence we've seen put in action.

Uh, no, I'm talking about what was literally happening until it was sabotaged by the Wanton. What did you think the Convocation was? It was the Ascension of the entire Eth Empire. If you're arguing that it wouldn't have worked, well, maybe, but clearly their engineers were pretty confident that it would.

As for the reactions of Mathosia and Eth to the dragons, you even admit that they're very different situations. The Eth basically had nuclear bombs turn their entire civilization to dust. The Mathosians had their king turn evil and that was it. So obviously the Mathosians could react by rising up against their evil king. Eth was already destroyed, however; nothing to rise up against. It's the difference between the Endless attacking you and the Wanton attacking you.

[Dustfinger]

Uh, no, I'm talking about what was literally happening until it was sabotaged by the Wanton. What did you think the Convocation was? It was the Ascension of the entire Eth Empire. If you're arguing that it wouldn't have worked, well, maybe, but clearly their engineers were pretty confident that it would.

As for the reactions of Mathosia and Eth to the dragons, you even admit that they're very different situations. The Eth basically had nuclear bombs turn their entire civilization to dust. The Mathosians had their king turn evil and that was it. So obviously the Mathosians could react by rising up against their evil king. Eth was already destroyed, however; nothing to rise up against. It's the difference between the Endless attacking you and the Wanton attacking you.

I'm also talking about what literally happened. Not what could have or was plannned to happen. Not what might have happened if all had gone according to plan.

At the height of Eth empire power, they weren't able to do it. If they had been able to make it a little longer without dragon interference then sure, most likely would have but as it is, they didn't. I could easily counter the Vigil may be able to make as many ascended as they please but why get into that?

I admit they are vastly diffent societies. Both were comparably effective. I think all you really did just now is provide an arguement for why the Guardian way might be better. But that is a pissing contest I've already decided to stay away from in this thread. I only set out to show that the Mathosian culture isn't at any severe disadvantage just because they reject magitech. i think I've done so. if you can speak to that subject I look forward to it.

[Dustfinger]

Actually, what's the source that sais the convocation was designed to ascend the entire Eth population?

This seems to contradict the "subject peoples" that reviled the ruling class.

[Xerokine]

Actually, what's the source that sais the convocation was designed to ascend the entire Eth population?

This seems to contradict the "subject peoples" that reviled the ruling class.

"We of the high council were not content with our vast power,
and in our arrogance, conceived a spell to elevate us to godhood.
After years of assembling the components, the Convocation was
ready. The tower would draw the souls of Eth and amplify them,
making men into gods. Yet, we were betrayed.

An agent of Maelforge corrupted the device that held the spirits.
Instead of empowering us, the force of a million souls was unleashed,
destroying the cradle of our civilization."


The 'subject peoples' were likely not Eth - probably the people of Freemarch or Stonefield, the northern borders of the empire. They would not have been included in the Convocation.

[Dustfinger]

"We of the high council were not content with our vast power,
and in our arrogance, conceived a spell to elevate us to godhood.
After years of assembling the components, the Convocation was
ready. The tower would draw the souls of Eth and amplify them,
making men into gods. Yet, we were betrayed.

An agent of Maelforge corrupted the device that held the spirits.
Instead of empowering us, the force of a million souls was unleashed,
destroying the cradle of our civilization."


The 'subject peoples' were likely not Eth - probably the people of Freemarch or Stonefield, the northern borders of the empire. They would not have been included in the Convocation.

Hmm. I'm not seeing anything about giving power to the entire population. All I see is that the high council wanted godhood. Couple this with the million of souls used for it, the actual methodology and soul research in the Defiant alternate timeline, and the description of "Drastic measures" for the Convocation that was cast only after a vote and with "tears streaking [the Sorcerer kings] pleated beards". I'd say it was only the ruling class that was going to gain, here.

[Xerokine]

Hmm. I'm not seeing anything about giving power to the entire population. All I see is that the high council wanted godhood. Couple this with the million of souls used for it, the actual methodology and soul research in the Defiant alternate timeline, and the description of "Drastic measures" for the Convocation that was cast only after a vote and with "tears streaking [the Sorcerer kings] pleated beards". I'd say it was only the ruling class that was going to gain, here.

A couple points here.

First; it says that the Convocation would draw in the souls of Eth and amplify them. Then it says that millions of souls were drawn in. Where does it say anything about any of those souls not being amplified, let alone sacrificed?

Second; if it wasn't unspeakably obvious from the italic text about speech patterns, the part with "drastic measures" and "tears streaking" was fake. It was edited in later to keep the Mathosians from knowing about the Convocation's true purpose; which was to turn all of Eth into Ascended.

[Maeloda]

I don't see how this is an issue. Eth at its peak was able to reach Vigil-like power. Mathosia at its peak was the perfect society for the Vigil, but was stuck into what we call 'medieval Europe'.

The Vigil wants to keep its worshippers down, and humble. This is NOT NECESSARILY a bad thing, as we can assume that the Vigil wishes for peace and justice and honor etc above the dangerous aspirations of sourcestone tech. At their peaks, we can go with the following order (with tech/skills + land expansion + resources = power):

1)Eth (very high in tech, moderate in expansionism)
2)Mathosia (low in tech, high in expansionism)
3)Kelari (high in 'tech'/spirits, low in expansionism)
4)Dwarves (moderate to high in tech, moderate in expansionism)
5)High Elves (low in tech, low to moderate in expansionism)
6)Bahmi (very low in tech, low in expansionism)

Kelari and Dwarves are somewhat evenly matched though, in different ways (runes and delves vs. spirits and islands). Same with Eth and Mathosia (tech vs. might). Same with High Elves and Bahmi (both keep to their areas, both place much less emphasis on pure expansionism and technological advancement, happy to live with their lands, in their own ways).


*************

PS: This also goes into a theory of mine that while the launch version of the game dealt with Mathosia and Eth (mostly Mathosia, so we can see Eth being covered more in another update), and the patches so far dealt with Dwarves (still haven't seen Lord's Hall though) and then Kelari in Ember Isle soon (with dwarves on the island too!)...
we may then be seeing Bahmi tribal land, and possibly ancient and old High Elven land. While the High Elves are 'from' Silverwood, and it is clearly their home, I would wager that there was a Blood Storm War/pre-BSW homeland that has long been forgotten, back from the time of Telara's creation.

And once the Bahmi and Elves are done, expansion time!!

[Dustfinger]

A couple points here.

First; it says that the Convocation would draw in the souls of Eth and amplify them. Then it says that millions of souls were drawn in. Where does it say anything about any of those souls not being amplified, let alone sacrificed?

Second; if it wasn't unspeakably obvious from the italic text about speech patterns, the part with "drastic measures" and "tears streaking" was fake. It was edited in later to keep the Mathosians from knowing about the Convocation's true purpose; which was to turn all of Eth into Ascended.

1- It sais: We of the high council were not content with our vast power...conceived a spell to elevate us to godhood. The tower would draw the souls of Eth and amplify them, making men into gods.

An agent of Maelforge corrupted the device that held the spirits.
Instead of empowering us, the force of a million souls was unleashed,

So, the souls were drawn in and supposed to be housed. While empowering those that were mentioned (High council).

2- It was painfully obvious, I just didn't want to hear the arguement that it wasn't the "Nice" version of what really happened. We know what really happened was bad enough to be called "drastic measure" and bad enough that they wanted you to think it it would only have been done with "tears streaming".

Again, where does it ever mention "All Eth" or even hint at "All Eth"? The only group ever mentioned is "High council". And how were a million Eth expected to just go about their lives while their souls were stored somewhere else?

[Maeloda]

EDIT: You may think that the Kelari are placed too high on this list, but I'll have to disagree. When it comes to luxury and potential strength (if they exercised it), the Kelari could have matched the dwarves quite handily. The High Elves may have had the blessing of the land on their side, but it seems they didn't do so much with it, happy to build what they can over the hundreds of years, and simply live in peace as long as possible. The Kelari on the other hand were isolationist after leaving the elves, but also seem to enjoy reaching their own heights on the Isles (much less than Eth, but certainly more ambitious than the Bahmi/High Elves). Both the Dwarves and Kelari seem to mostly enjoy 'doing their own thing' with their societies - a difference being that the dwarves had much of mainland Telara to build delves with the blessing of the humans and elves, while the Kelari are 'stuck' on an island.

*********

Anyway, back to Eth and Mathosians - Eth built the largest and most powerful empire. They fell, due to hubris and cultist influence/sabotage (personally I'd theorize that the Golden Maw infiltrated the Empire, causing them to reach too far and attempt Ascension of themselves, bringing the Wanton to destroy the whole thing. It's not like the Maw and Wanton can't work together, if you look to the PTS testing of the 1.5 world event! Greedy people dealing with demons, yep sounds right.)

The Mathosians felt a 'manifest destiny' and annexed most of mainland Telara whether they begged for it , or they resisted. They left the High Elves and Dwarves to do their thing (as they likely had somewhat good relationships with them during the BSW anyway), but kicked the Eth while they were down, persecuted the Bahmi "mutants"(?) and regarded the now far away Kelari elves with disdain.

All in all, they didn't have much resistance, and the Mathosian Empire stood for a while. Nothing as long as the Eth, but when we look to most of our Lv 6-50 zones, we see their influence FAR more than the Eth (which is mostly spires and a few tiny ruins).

We see from Twisted Artifacts that the Mathosian people, in another world, lived where BOTH Aedraxis and Zereph DIED, and someone (likely maybe.. Cyril or Carwin??) led Mathosia, the Shade perhaps never happened, and Mathosia was led into a Golden Age of prosperity. The Defiants and Orphiel would have never stood a chance to gain political ground, and the cultists would have fallen one by one, far faster than even the current Ascended are succeeding at.

*But this didn't happen.* Mathosia was still in a low stage of development before the Shade hit, and wasn't anything approaching the Eth Empire. Still, I find it interesting the idea of Mathosia being a great Holy Empire rather than the beginnings of one. The Anti-Eth Empire, essentially.