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Thread: Are the dragons actually evil? The second Dragon Theory.

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    Default Are the dragons actually evil? The second Dragon Theory.

    Clearly some of the dragons are evil. Regulos and Crucia and Maelforge seem to be obsessed with world domination.

    However, what about Akylios, Greenscale, and Laethys?

    Akylios might have been evil before he was driven mad, but how can we know? That was eons ago. I know for a fact that insane people are not held accountable for their actions in the justice system, so is it possible Akylios is not actually acting of his own free will?

    Greenscale doesn't neccessarily even want to kill anyone. He wants nature to take it's course, working as it had for ages before interference of mortals. He wants the world to revert to a more primordial state. That's not inherently evil. A little loony, but not evil.

    Laethys seems to be the least evil of them all, unless Akylios was good before he was driven mad. She's greedy, and that's a sin according to the bible, but evil? Not really. Maybe she only wants more because the people of Telara want more. If Telarans were satisfied, and wealth no longer played a role in society, could she be sated?

    These arguements bring me to my Second Dragon Theory! Death is not inherently an evil force. Death MUST occur in order for there to be life. It's an endless cycle.

    What does this mean though? The simplest way to put it, is that the Blood Storm were at one point, in the past, neutral. Not good like the vigil, but not evil as they currently are now. Elements must exist in balance; just because Regulos is the personification of death does not mean he is incappable of good.

    Dragons are merely the visage of their respective realm. If the balance of the realms is disturbed, then the dragons will mirror this. Something must be happening in their realms which causes this shift. Killing the dragons is like chopping the flower off of a dandelion. If you want to get rid of the weed, you must target the source.

    TL;DR - Maybe dragons are neutral, but upheavel in their respective realms causes their personality to mirror the upheavel. Killing dragons won't solve anything when they aren't the true problem.

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    Plane Touched Arynite's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ihas2buckets View Post
    Clearly some of the dragons are evil. Regulos and Crucia and Maelforge seem to be obsessed with world domination.

    However, what about Akylios, Greenscale, and Laethys?
    Akylios, Greenscale, and Laethys may not be evil in their beliefs, but they do seem to be morally lacking in the methods they use. For example: murder, enslavement, brainwashing... eeevil!

    Quote Originally Posted by Ihas2buckets View Post
    TL;DR - Maybe dragons are neutral, but upheavel in their respective realms causes their personality to mirror the upheavel. Killing dragons won't solve anything when they aren't the true problem.
    I'm going to agree with the idea that killing the dragons won't solve all our problems. But they're still worth some good loot and it progresses the story, so we might as well.

    Thinking of dragons this way makes me think of the movie "The Dark Crystal". Ignore the text below if you haven't seen it and you don't want your movie ruined. Well... 'sort of' ruined, considering it's possible to figure the whole thing out pretty early on anyway.

    ***** SPOILER ALERT ***** SPOILER ALERT *****
    A race of powerful beings is rifted into two separate races. One of these races is evil and wants to take over the world. The other is benevolent and peaceful, but as the "other half" they don't really take much of an active stand in preventing the world's destruction. Instead, our main character heroes must save the day, by merging the two separate races back into one.
    ***** SPOILER ALERT ***** SPOILER ALERT *****

    The Guardians are probably going to brand me a heretic a couple times over for that one.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ihas2buckets View Post
    Elements must exist in balance
    My place is at your side, Lord Marshal (Kain), from here to Underverse come!~

    /endobscuremoviereferences
    Last edited by Arynite; 09-20-2011 at 02:54 PM.
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    Rift Disciple SindriMyr21's Avatar
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    If you finished the Water/Abyssal Saga quest chain you end up talking to Joseph out side of the Tavern in Sanctum to get your mount. To sum up what he said, he explained that the elements themselves are NOT evil, the Dragons are the most powerful and the most evil of the planes. So we can not just put two and two together and say that "Oh, this area is filled with water, it must be purged because it will cause Akylios to spread his madness!"

    Water is also associated with healing and purity, Fire is life and the light in the dark, Air represents freedom, Earth stands for confidence and stability, Life can represent many things that range from patience to strength and endurance, and death can be seen as peaceful, our final destination.

    I can see the OP's point about how some of the Dragons can be seen as neutral but yet they attack the innocent mortals of Telara. How can that be neutral? The Dragons represent the darkest and most twisted version of their elemental plane. Not the planes themselves, seeing that Life and Water still exist even after the defeat of Greenscale and Akylios.
    "I do not expect the Ascended and mortals of Telara to forgive me for descending into the madness of Akylios. I do not seek redemption in their eyes. For it is Tavril that allows me to roam the lands without treading on thorns, it is Thedeor that still grants me the skill to slay my foes, it is Bahralt that allows my equipment to not wane from use, it is Mariel-Taun that gives me the courage to defend my friends and allies, and it is Thontic that broke the madness that once plagued my soul..."

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    RIFT Community Ambassador Morvick's Avatar
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    My view is they're evil by association, especially since what they want is so at odds with what we [Telarans] want.

    Laethys For this one I point to Corporate CEOs as an anthropomorphization. Laethys, like them, wants money and control over that which brings her money. However this means that competition must be bought or beaten out. It is not enough that Laethys wins; everyone else must lose. The greed and hunger that she embodies is a destructive means to an end, which includes an impoverished and subservient Telara bringing her baskets of gold, rubies, and sourcestone, all day every day. Not the kind of environment you want to raise some Ascended babies in, savvy?

    Greenscale This is about the same as the mad scientist whose respect for the sovereignty and innate power of Nature is so amazing that they totally disregard human life, seeing it as an inferior blight hindering this natural perfection. Remember, we Telarans don't want just any peace -- we want our peace. A primordial world sure wouldn't leave much time for wars, but neither is it productive towards the arts, sciences, or higher orders of philosophical thought.

    Akylios I'll accept the Insanity defense, if you accept that Psychoticism is a form of insanity and this is what I believe Akylios suffers from... in supernatural dragon form. He is out of touch with the world, and while it may not be by his choice, the reality of what he does and influences is evil and chaotic. Of all the Dragons I would certainly rank him as the least Evil, but in a "Joker" sort of way -- by his own sad, twisted nature, he poses a threat and needs to be put down. His state of evil is a tragedy, but that doesn't mean he shouldn't be killed.

    In the case of any of the Dragons, I feel like their enamored Cults are more evil than the idols of their affection, because they choose to follow their Masters -- even the Storm Legion and the Abyssal are able to decide that they wish to follow their mad Gods.
    Last edited by Morvick; 09-20-2011 at 06:16 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by SindriMyr21 View Post
    If you finished the Water/Abyssal Saga quest chain you end up talking to Joseph out side of the Tavern in Sanctum to get your mount. To sum up what he said, he explained that the elements themselves are NOT evil, the Dragons are the most powerful and the most evil of the planes. So we can not just put two and two together and say that "Oh, this area is filled with water, it must be purged because it will cause Akylios to spread his madness!"

    Water is also associated with healing and purity, Fire is life and the light in the dark, Air represents freedom, Earth stands for confidence and stability, Life can represent many things that range from patience to strength and endurance, and death can be seen as peaceful, our final destination.

    I can see the OP's point about how some of the Dragons can be seen as neutral but yet they attack the innocent mortals of Telara. How can that be neutral? The Dragons represent the darkest and most twisted version of their elemental plane. Not the planes themselves, seeing that Life and Water still exist even after the defeat of Greenscale and Akylios.
    I'm not going to disagree that CURRENTLY dragons represent the most violent parts of each element. But in order for balance to exist, there must be an ultimate good, a perfect counter weight you see.

    And NO, this is NOT the Vigil. Several of the members of the vigil don't represent an element, but rather an idea, or place. For example, I beleive Bahralt is the god of the forge, and civilzation? One could say that this is the positive side of earth; safety, stability. But is there really any connection beyond this? It's a pretty flimsy arguement in my eyes.

    Let's just assume, for the sake of arguement, that I am right, that the vigil does not have elemental correspondence. Lets also assume that the dragons are inherently evil; they have been this way since the dawn of time. This would mean that the elements are also inherently evil. Since there is no counter weight to the dragons, it would make sense. But we already know that this is untrue.

    The elements are not evil however. They simply aren't. The dragons could not have been evil since the dawn of time, because as the face of the planes, this would make the elements evil. The only way for the elements to not be evil is for the dragons to have originally been neutral, or created due to some form of internal strife in the planes, possibly an outside force?

    The simplified version of this is my original theory. The dragons either started out neutral, or were created from s disruption in their own plane.

    It's a bit of a lofty concept, but I love to stimulate conversation

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    Quote Originally Posted by Morvick View Post
    My view is they're evil by association, especially since what they want is so at odds with what we [Telarans] want.

    Laethys For this one I point to Corporate CEOs as an anthropomorphization. Laethys, like them, wants money and control over that which brings her money. However this means that competition must be bought or beaten out. It is not enough that Laethys wins; everyone else must lose. The greed and hunger that she embodies is a destructive means to an end, which includes an impoverished and subservient Telara bringing her baskets of gold, rubies, and sourcestone, all day every day. Not the kind of environment you want to raise some Ascended babies in, savvy?

    Greenscale This is about the same as the mad scientist whose respect for the sovereignty and innate power of Nature is so amazing that they totally disregard human life, seeing it as an inferior blight hindering this natural perfection. Remember, we Telarans don't want just any peace -- we want our peace. A primordial world sure wouldn't leave much time for wars, but neither is it productive towards the arts, sciences, or higher orders of philosophical thought.

    Akylios I'll accept the Insanity defense, if you accept that Psychoticism is a form of insanity and this is what I believe Akylios suffers from... in supernatural dragon form. He is out of touch with the world, and while it may not be by his choice, the reality of what he does and influences is evil and chaotic. Of all the Dragons I would certainly rank him as the least Evil, but in a "Joker" sort of way -- by his own sad, twisted nature, he poses a threat and needs to be put down. His state of evil is a tragedy, but that doesn't mean he shouldn't be killed.

    In the case of any of the Dragons, I feel like their enamored Cults are more evil than the idols of their affection, because they choose to follow their Masters -- even the Storm Legion and the Abyssal are able to decide that they wish to follow their mad Gods.
    But there are those who beleive the ends justify the means in our world, and they have accomplished great things, refering to Greenscale. Laethys does seem evil now. I almost feel bad for Akylios however, kind of like a dog that contracts rabies. You feel bad for it, but it will only suffer if you let it live, and it could do some real damage.

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    Also, Laethys could just bea compulsive hoarder. She collects riches because she NEEEEEEEEEEEEEDS to. Ever seen the show? It makes a bit of sense, until you said that she needs everyone else to lose for her to win.

    But in any game, whether it be Monopoly, Life, or Chess, everyone besides the winner loses. Laethys just thinks of winning differently than we do. Think Charlie Sheen "winning"

    Edit: Too late to edit the first post after Morvick, but I meant to say that I agree, not that I disagree.
    Last edited by Ihas2buckets; 09-20-2011 at 07:41 PM.

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    Ascendant Maeloda's Avatar
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    Yes they are evil. Also sad, pathetic, threatening, simple, calculating, cold, hate-filled.

    Etc.


    But I'm very sure that there is a counter balance on the Planes, even if they are greatly outnumbered. We DO need quest hubs after all ;)

    And I don't think that the dragons are the most powerful. I think they are very powerful entities (some lieutenants, some doing this on their own) who banded together to scour Telara. There could be greater forces behind them.

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    RIFT Community Ambassador Morvick's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ihas2buckets View Post
    But in any game, whether it be Monopoly, Life, or Chess, everyone besides the winner loses. Laethys just thinks of winning differently than we do.
    In a zero-sum game (like sports or pvp shooters), yes. To win, another must lose.

    I'd deny that compulsive hoarder argument however, though I give credit to Laethys for embodying the greatest trait of European dragons; their hoard of gold. They were infamous for it, and killing one of the serpentine beasts almost certainly gave you access to its stash.
    "Laethys will feast atop a pile of famished wretches. All will adore her alone, and she will never give them quite enough."

    Ah, and then there's this;
    http://www.riftgame.com/en/world/pla...e-of-earth.php
    Scroll down to "Dragon of Earth: Queen of Avarice", also reading the sidebar "In Sickness and in Wealth".
    "Spoiled and fickle, Laethys discards her followers as quickly as she warms to them. Who knows how many back-alley beggars were once fat merchants who forgot the proper sacrifice to Laethys: pretty youths, their eyes cut out and replaced with rubies."

    Using the Christian model, most of the Dragons seem to embody at least one of the Seven Deadly Sins.
    Taking a few exerts;
    Lust - Laethys, in a way
    Gluttony - Greenscale
    Greed - Laethys
    Sloth - Akylios (Let it go, just succumb to the madness... and pass me some Scooby Snacks, dude)
    Wrath - Maelforge
    Envy - Regulos, Crucia
    Pride - Crucia
    Last edited by Morvick; 09-20-2011 at 08:24 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maeloda View Post
    And I don't think that the dragons are the most powerful. I think they are very powerful entities (some lieutenants, some doing this on their own) who banded together to scour Telara. There could be greater forces behind them.
    Ah, you mean like this?

    And the Titans. Once rulers of an empire within the Plane of Earth, these enormous beings make the tallest mortal look like a toy. They are not brutal, the Titans. They are not stupid. They are Earth at its most dangerous: wise, cold, mighty beyond comprehension. And they will have an empire again.

    I expect that if not before, certainly by the time of RIFT's first Expansion Pack, we'll be able to invade the Planes ourselves. ^^
    Quote Originally Posted by Zinbik View Post
    I also made other enhancements to certain aspects of the game for various reasons.

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    Plane Touched Arynite's Avatar
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    Just going to throw out some more theory for fun:

    Mariel-Taun - generosity, giving freely
    Laethys - greed, hording

    Tavril - the land
    Greenscale - untamed wilds

    Thedeor - justice/courage, adventurous spirit
    Crucia - manipulation/deceit, lack of free will

    Thontic - the sea, mystery
    Akylios - the depths, knowledge

    Bahralt - crafting, forging (creation)
    Maelforge - ruin and destruction

    Regulos - destroyer
    ??? - ???
    Eshlon@Greybriar

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    Of course they're evil. They represent the corrupted, evil aspects of their respective planes. There are GOOD aspects, for sure, and they may even be almost identical to the ones the dragons represent. But the particular tinge to the dragons' aspects is undeniably evil.

    While Regulos, Maelforge, and Crucia are obviously hell-bent on destruction and conquering and the like, the other 3 are no less repulsive in what they seek.

    Greenscale: Greenscale isn't at all like you characterize him. He doesn't want the world to "return to nature." He doesn't actually even really care that much, that's just Hylas and the Aelfwar that care about that, and even their perspective is much more "destroy civilization" oriented.

    Greenscale represents life in a state of overgrowth. Of frenzy. Of struggle, competition, and feral madness to get the tiniest edge and destroy anything you see and get its power. Chaotic, unrestrained, overzealous, maddening life. He makes Malthus's view of existence seem tame and kind. What he seeks isn't plants growing and animals thriving, he seeks plants growing so fast they crush all other life until a guy comes with an axe to chop them all down who's eaten by a pack of hungry wolves who turn on each other for food while a fungus begins eating their living flesh and consuming the bodies and is eaten by a boar that's poisoned by the fungus weakening it so a satyr can chop its head off while a faerie sneaks up behind it to kill it etc. etc. etc. etc. Not nature, just maddening, primal, unrestrained growth and competition.

    Akylios: Yeah, Akylios is insane. It's what he represents. It's the type of insanity where you seek out knowledge (and thus power) no matter the cost. You ignore empathy to perform experiments on live specimens, you lie, cheat, steal, and murder to get access to books/libraries, you research any spell that you can find no matter how horrible the magic. He's about delving deep just to delve deep, even when what's deep down there will certainly kill you, or be unleashed upon the world by you.

    Akylios is the manifestation of this idea. He is the representation of a mad lust for knowledge. Not just a healthy interest in learning, not even a myopic lust for discovery (like Sylver Valis has). Orphiel is closer to it, but still not even close to the thing Akylios represents.

    Laethys: Well Laethys is the most patently evil. Laethys isn't just about hoarding, about gaining wealth/fame/power/objects, it's about the length to which she goes to satiate the greed. NOTHING stands in the way of Laethys and money. Loyalty, kindness, fairness, none come into play. A CEO isn't a good example, they seek to gain wealth through (usually) legal and somewhat fair means. They may be ruthless about it, but a CEO won't literally steal the money out of your wallet, and shoot you if you resist. They'll try to cajole you into spending it. Laethys will not only kill you to steal your money, she'll hold you hostage, get the cash, then renege on the deal for more money, or just kill you and steal what's left. If you can't get her money, she doesn't care about you. And if you have money, she'll take it from you.

    So yes, the dragons are evil. They aren't evil because we ascribe their actions as being evil, they're evil because they represent the aspect about their plane that IS evil. Greed isn't bad, but the type of greed Laethys represents IS bad. They all represent an excess, a corruption, of the nature of their planes.
    Last edited by MrFunsocks; 09-20-2011 at 10:43 PM.

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    RIFT Community Ambassador Morvick's Avatar
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    "On a scale of 1 to 10, with 1 being absolutely insane and 10 being absolutely insane, how would you rate your mental health?"
    Laethys - 10
    Greenscale - 3
    Akylios - Banana

    Anything in it's extreme is unhealthy and insane, which is why I think the Vigil Gods (who may or may not be planar beings like the Dragons) preach balance. Though the Lore states the Gods once walked among the mortals and took part in their young, daily lives. So not sure how that would work if they were 70-foot dragons. *shrug*
    Last edited by Morvick; 09-20-2011 at 11:05 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Morvick View Post
    "On a scale of 1 to 10, with 1 being absolutely insane and 10 being absolutely insane, how would you rate your mental health?"
    Laethys - 10
    Greenscale - 3
    Akylios - Banana

    Anything in it's extreme is unhealthy and insane, which is why I think the Vigil Gods (who may or may not be planar beings like the Dragons) preach balance. Though the Lore states the Gods once walked among the mortals and took part in their young, daily lives. So not sure how that would work if they were 70-foot dragons. *shrug*
    I see the Vigil as realistically sized Wise-Men that look like the statue off of Freemarch (though possibly a bit different, and well that might only be Thontic, but you get the picture).

    Like the dragons of Azeroth (heheheheh....... .....) they may have an alternate form, but while the Blood Storm seem to default to Dragon but possibly have a humanoid form like Regulos has, the Vigil may have an alternate form but prefer to stay 'human size' in order to experience the world as it is meant to be experienced.

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    I used to think that the Gods of the Vigil were neutral, and created Telara this way, when I read about the high elves though I saw they already favored one race, so not truly neutral.

    http://www.riftgame.com/en/races/high-elves.php
    Last edited by Mythue; 09-21-2011 at 04:23 PM.

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