+ Reply to Thread
Page 1 of 3 1 2 3 LastLast
Results 1 to 15 of 41

Thread: Clerics and the Defiant

  1. #1
    Champion Pretext's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Posts
    510

    Default Clerics and the Defiant

    How are we reconciling having a faction which is against the gods having access to Cleric classes? Now I know these were clerics in a former life, maybe they are all renounced or something, if so where does their power come from?

    I also donít see a lot of newer Ascended Clerics coming from a Defiant cultural background, if they are stealing those souls from Guardian regions their new Ascended are just going to want to smite them.

    Some assumptions which we may need to question to get an answer: Clerical power comes from the gods, there are no Defiant machines which replicate this. If you want to question that, we are going to need Defiant Clerics to be carrying around God Mana backpacks or something.

  2. #2
    Shadowlander
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Posts
    36

    Default

    Not all clerical power comes from gods, or at least not all comes from REAL gods. A great many priestly traditions, in the real world and in various games, come from spirits. Some of those spirits are willing, some aren't, but it's a viable alternative.

  3. #3
    Champion Pretext's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Posts
    510

    Default

    Quite like it, you are looking at Clerics drawing power from an animist tradition or actual spirits in their own realm sort of idea?

    I see little evidence of animism in the lore or spirits existing as separate entities though. Do any of the classes have spirit allies? The Druids seem to have fae allies, they would be a good example of both animist spirits of nature and living in their own realm types of spirit. We have the Shamans too, having decided not to play Beta (I never do) I am assuming they use spirits. But that’s it, which is a small basis to agree on a solution, but a start.

    If the sprits were avatars of things in the real world but not present in the real world unless summoned, that gets around their not being seen much in the real world issue. But this is all speculation based on wafer thin lore, I do get the feeling the designers slipped up here, this is pretty basic really. No one on their staff realised this could be a lore issue?
    Last edited by Pretext; 01-11-2011 at 02:47 AM.

  4. #4
    Shadowlander
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Posts
    36

    Default

    I know that the Kelari infused their entire cities with spirits. In fact, it was this interaction which caused them to split away from the rest of the high evles(they were once the same race). You can find this in the Kelari racial description:

    http://www.riftgame.com/en/races/kelari.php

  5. #5
    Rift Disciple Kirzixis's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2010
    Posts
    132

    Default

    You could also say their power comes from the planes. Since priests manipulate the same planar energy in diffferent ways than mages, it is still viable that Clerics do not pray to the gods. They are channeling planar energy through meditation and discipline. You could also say that the rejection of the old gods has weakened them, even the gods can die without a single worshiper, therefore less worshipers means less power. Other spirits vying for power are helping these clerics.

    There's lots of possibilities.

  6. #6
    Champion Pretext's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Posts
    510

    Default

    That bit of Kelari lore certainly helped, making pacts with spirits and lesser Ďgodsí is just the sort of thing that would explain Defiant clerics source of power.

    But would not those Defiant clerics follow a religion? Say like Shinto which involves spirits or that of the Loa? It could be quite personnel to them, but still what they have their faith in it.

    Traditionally mages draw their power from a metaphysical energy; call it essence, planar, what you will. Clerics get their powers from spiritual connection to a god. That does not have to be what happens, but Rifts seems to follow that traditional precept.

  7. #7
    Soulwalker Silverwulfe's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Location
    Texas
    Posts
    18

    Default Sourcestone?

    Perhaps with the advance in tech again the Clerics were able to manipulate their power directly from Sourcestone (or it's derivatives). Since Telara is made entirely of sourcestone, this would make it readily avaialbe. It's a good question. I don't know the answer, but that would make logical sense and satisfy the steampunk inside of me that keeps wanting to let the Eth out.

  8. #8
    Plane Touched Arnem's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Posts
    138

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Pretext View Post
    That bit of Kelari lore certainly helped, making pacts with spirits and lesser Ďgodsí is just the sort of thing that would explain Defiant clerics source of power.

    But would not those Defiant clerics follow a religion? Say like Shinto which involves spirits or that of the Loa? It could be quite personnel to them, but still what they have their faith in it.

    Traditionally mages draw their power from a metaphysical energy; call it essence, planar, what you will. Clerics get their powers from spiritual connection to a god. That does not have to be what happens, but Rifts seems to follow that traditional precept.
    Defiant clerics seem to operate under business-like relationships. One of the quests in Meridian had you give an offereing to a fire elemental in place of a cleric. It seems the elemental wouldn't take offerings from that cleric anymore, but the cleric was at a loss to explain it's behavior, so she sends the offering with you as an apology. The elemental, when you present the offering, explains that she called it light a campfire, something it regards as a menial task far beneath it. The offering placates the elemental enough for it to agree to see the cleric again.

    What I took from that quest is that both sides are getting something out of the arrangement. Clerics get the power they need to pursue their own goals and the spirits get offerings and someone walking the world that demonstrates their power for them to the rest of the world. Sort of like sponsors funding a racing car or supplying an athlete with all brand name equipment, it makes it easier for a spirit to collect followers by having a champion walking around with their power giving them strength, even if that champion is just paying lip service.

  9. #9
    Champion Pretext's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Posts
    510

    Default

    I think I would go more along the pacts with spirits route than the steampunk one. You have lore and in game quests pointing that way. But no Defiant machines replicating Cleric like powers or bestowing them on Ascended. I have to admit though that more tech from the Defiant would be great for their theme.

  10. #10
    Plane Touched CHIMPNOODLE's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Posts
    230

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Pretext View Post
    How are we reconciling having a faction which is against the gods having access to Cleric classes? Now I know these were clerics in a former life, maybe they are all renounced or something, if so where does their power come from?

    I also donít see a lot of newer Ascended Clerics coming from a Defiant cultural background, if they are stealing those souls from Guardian regions their new Ascended are just going to want to smite them.

    Some assumptions which we may need to question to get an answer: Clerical power comes from the gods, there are no Defiant machines which replicate this. If you want to question that, we are going to need Defiant Clerics to be carrying around God Mana backpacks or something.
    I think this is a great question and point!

    Lots of interesting "solutions" and in-game ties already coming out in this thread. I'd love to hear the Rift Lore Guru's "official" response/explanation

  11. #11
    RIFT Fan Site Operator EntreNous's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Location
    Server: Wolfsbane
    Posts
    552

    Default

    The over arching theme for the Defiant is not they they don't believe there are gods. It is that they don't have faith in the gods to save the world. Remember, they blame the gods for this mess in the first place. Also, do not forget the fact that there are other gods/demi-gods besides the 5 that make up the Vigil. So, it is understandable that "Defiant" clerics would exist.

    "Intensely focused, a Cleric tackles any endeavor secure in the support of powerful beings incomprehensible to the layman. These beings’ exact nature depends upon each Cleric’s culture of origin and spiritual training regimen.

    All of the powers the clerics get is explained on each of their pages.

    Purifier ... elemental/devine
    Inquisitor ... elemental/devine
    Sentinel ... devine
    Justicar ... devine
    Shaman ... elemental
    Warden ... elemental/devine


    The question now becomes ... How devoted does one need to be to gain the powers?
    Last edited by EntreNous; 01-12-2011 at 12:18 PM. Reason: add word ... demi-god
    RiftRares ... A work in progress.
    Rogue on FaeBlight
    8/8 RR's ... 4/4 DH ... 4/4 GP ... 5/5 GsB ... 5/5 RoS ... 2/4 RotP ... 10/11 HK

  12. #12
    Rift Disciple Amster's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Posts
    74

    Default

    Heh, I made a post exactly like this last month. XD

    http://forums.riftgame.com/showthrea...c-as-a-Defiant

    You can find a few more thoughts/ideas on it there too.

    I felt the same way, I was trying to figure out how I would explain it/justify it for my characters background.

  13. #13
    Soulwalker Aralin's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2010
    Posts
    6

    Default

    I really think that the Defiant clerics are gaining their powers through pacts with spirits, even if its not known to them that they are drawing their power from these entities. We already see evidence that the spirits can give cleric magic. Look at the warden and their background. It speaks of how a kelari went to tame the river spirit, learned from it a thing or two and then was granted access to the river spirits power.

    "Divine" magic really doesn't need to come from the actual deity imo. I really liked the Eberron campaign setting for D&D because their "clerics" gained their power from the mass power of faith and faith alone. They believed in something so much that it gave that idea and faith power and that is what they drew upon.

    Just my two cents worth.
    Tell me there are Gods in the serene heavens that will damn his children for the expression of an honest belief! More men died in their sins, judged by such orthodox creeds, than there are leaves in all the forests of Telara ten thousand times over. I denounce the Vigil for such blatant lies!

  14. #14
    Ascendant Onarye's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Location
    Ontario Canada
    Posts
    1,552

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by brento73 View Post
    Not all clerical power comes from gods, or at least not all comes from REAL gods. A great many priestly traditions, in the real world and in various games, come from spirits. Some of those spirits are willing, some aren't, but it's a viable alternative.
    This is right
    Processor: i7 920 2.7Ghz 4 Cores
    RAM: 12 GB Corsair DDR3
    Graphics Card: ATI Radeon HD 5770 1 GB
    Hard Disk: 2 TB
    Triton Gaming Headset For Ventrilo

  15. #15
    Plane Touched thatfool's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Posts
    210

    Default

    They are not "against the gods". They just don't think the gods will magically fix everything if they only build enough temples and pray a lot. There is no debate about whether gods exist at all since that's pretty much a given; it would be foolish to deny their existance. So why not use their gifts when they give them? The debate the defiants have with the guardians is about miracles the gods *aren't* providing right now. Or in other words, the defiants think powers granted by gods are tools and they use them like any other tool in their quest to fix the world. The guardians think even with these powers, they can't fix the world on their own; some god has to do it for them.

    Besides, lore indicates that there are several types of gods, all the way down to simple spirits, that clerics draw their power from. They don't really have to be the same gods they want to be independent from.

+ Reply to Thread
Page 1 of 3 1 2 3 LastLast

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts