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Thread: Defiant Clerics

  1. #1
    Shadowlander Jordell's Avatar
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    Default Defiant Clerics

    So, the traditional fantasy cleric is an adventurer that worships a god and recieves powers and abilities from said worship. So how does this work for the Defiant, since they don't worship the Vigil or any other gods. Do they use technology to mimic the gifts of the gods?

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    Plane Walker Treig's Avatar
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    Yes, I believe but I'd rather not pray
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    Plane Touched
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    Well, if you look at the lore in regards to the Kelari, they make deals with spirits in order to gain their power. Heck, the story of the first Warden found on the Rift website even says as much. With many Defiant clerics it's probably a similar thing - make a deal with a particularly powerful spirit in order to draw upon its strength.

    You could probably RP using technology or perhaps being a follower of the Vigil, but that's going to be a little less supported by the in-game lore itself.

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    Ascendant Maeloda's Avatar
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    Spirits granting power (or having granted power to a Blood Storm War hero long ago, now transferred to you via the soul system), Bahmi ancestor worship (which may hold some credibility, and hey, may be related to their affinity to Air), etc.

    However, the idea isn't exactly that you, yourself are 'truly' a druid, or a justicar, but rather that you use the souls of the heroes to access their ancestral power.

    So yes, an Eth can be a Warden without even being blessed by the Vigil or making deals with a water spirit (though they could do the latter in RP if you wish) - they simply took the soul of that person and incorporated into their Ascended self.

    The Defiant seem to view the whole thing as wielding these powers as tools, rather than true righteous might of the Vigil. I'd say to either see it that way, or see it as bargaining with Telaran spirits (especially if you are a Kelari!).

    When in doubt, turn to the soul system as being the reason behind it. Just like how the Vigil could bring back a Mathosian necromancer, when clearly they would HATE it (even if the Guardians permitted it, and fellow player characters and NPCs allowed it). You're using ancient souls to do amazing things, when otherwise you would need many years to hone these powers (or worship) to gain, in this case, clerical powers of gods.

  5. #5
    Plane Walker
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    “The Ascended are already one with the elements. They don’t need your machine.”

    or could you not see the gods/spirits as elements and as ascended be already one with these, needing not to make sacrifices/worship/pacts?
    Last edited by Mythue; 08-24-2011 at 05:37 AM.

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    Ascendant Sinndel's Avatar
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    Maeloda has the right Idea here. Not to overshadow the Kelari's spirit links and what have you, but 100% of your powers are drawn from the three souls you've bonded with. Like Mae said, there's no reason you can't RP a different explaination, but the reason we can be a warden one minute, and a cabalist the next, is because the powers aren't ours but borrowed from a dead hero.
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    Ascendant Tachi's Avatar
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    The answer is in the Cleric description:

    Telara’s original wielders of magic gained their powers through pacts with minor elemental spirits. Through devoted study, these Clerics reached out to ever-more-powerful beings, soon communing with demons, faeries, and gods. These holy men and women founded a number of spiritual disciplines: some focused tightly on a narrow ethos, while others retained more free-form theological allegiances.

    Although those who take up this calling boast extensive knowledge and keen intellect, Clerics value wisdom and faith above all else. Intensely focused, a Cleric tackles any endeavor secure in the support of powerful beings incomprehensible to the layman. These beings’ exact nature depends upon each Cleric’s culture of origin and spiritual training regimen.
    So it's not the typical Cleric we're used to that is tied to some religious being, though depending on your race and culture they can be devoted to a god. That pretty much makes room for a cleric to be tied to a Goddess such as Tavril, or an ancestor who was intensely focused on brewing legendary ale, who made a pact with a spirit for knowledge and their power.

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    Soulwalker Sahgiel's Avatar
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    Some Clerics have given up the ways of faith, for a more mortal approach, believing that life and death themselves are our "God".

    These beings’ exact nature depends upon each Cleric’s culture of origin and spiritual training regimen
    I personally don't walk around waving a book of faith or light in anyones face, rather, taking the less light-hearted road accepting that there is not always some divine force keeping us from harm.

    Truth is, as a Cabalist, I am alone, except for my dominion over fear and the shadows themselves.

    "Where is your Vigil now mortal?"

    Edit - Personal View. Bash it if you want
    Last edited by Sahgiel; 09-05-2011 at 08:11 PM.
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    Shadowlander
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    While all of the above explanations fit perfectly, another explanation that fits is that Defiant Ascended aren't taken from a specific point in time like the Guardians are. They have been, more or less, plucked randomly from the Soulstream. This means that, from a role playing perspective, it would not be entirely impossible for a Defiant cleric to actually hail from a time where they did worship certain members of The Vigil.

    And while there might be some who would argue with me, when the Defiant turned from the gods there were likely a small few who did not hold to this particular philosophy. It just doesn't seem reasonable to me to think that when the majority of the Defiant decided that technology was the way and abandoned their religion, that every last member of those particular species followed suit.

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    Ascendant Maeloda's Avatar
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    I still think the most important factor is this:

    a)your 'home' soul (aka who you are and identify as), if you choose to be a cleric, means still nothing. Your skills don't come from that. You may have been a super awesome Warden Kelari, but as an Ascended that doesn't affect your skills (and it is up to player choice to make that character a primary-Warden in the RP+gameplay sense).

    b)your abilities are determined by the 3 souls (out of 8 total) that you attune yourself to at a specific time. You may not worship the Gods, but by attuning yourself to a Justicar soul from the Soulstream. Faith has NOTHING to do with it, though you can RP as a character who once had faith in the Vigil (especially an Eth would work with this, or a Kelari with secret Tavril worship), but views them as ineffective and aligns yourself to the Defiant and magitech.
    Our powers are technically not our own, and only our wielding of these powers is what makes an individual Ascended strong. Basically, your pyromancer powers don't make you an actual pure pyromancer who has trained years for it, but your 'character level' (aka experience over time) determines your skill you have to attuning yourself to the specific pyromancer soul.

    You notice the Defiant soul-class NPC's around Meridian always talk about the *utility* of a soul, instead of the meaning of them. Souls are tools to Defiant, just like the planes, just like everything else. If anything, Defiant cleric Ascended are even more an affont to the Vigil because you just MAY be using what would otherwise be their power that they bestow in good relations with Mathosians/Dwarves/Elves, and taking it for your own. In their view you would be no better than an Endless corrupting a Guardian and using their holy powers to fight on behalf of the Endless.

  11. #11
    Telaran Dustfinger's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elistari View Post
    While all of the above explanations fit perfectly, another explanation that fits is that Defiant Ascended aren't taken from a specific point in time like the Guardians are. They have been, more or less, plucked randomly from the Soulstream. This means that, from a role playing perspective, it would not be entirely impossible for a Defiant cleric to actually hail from a time where they did worship certain members of The Vigil.

    And while there might be some who would argue with me, when the Defiant turned from the gods there were likely a small few who did not hold to this particular philosophy. It just doesn't seem reasonable to me to think that when the majority of the Defiant decided that technology was the way and abandoned their religion, that every last member of those particular species followed suit.
    This makes sense. Defiant elves had alters to river spirits for power, so why not gods too?

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dustfinger View Post
    This makes sense. Defiant elves had alters to river spirits for power, so why not gods too?
    Keep in mind that...

    1. Early in the game as a Guardian you find some nice Vigil Propaganda that pretty much explains that the Vigil doesn't like the Eth, Bahmi, and Kelari.

    2. If somebody was a true follower of the Vigil, the Vigil would have picked them instead of the Defiant.

  13. #13
    Telaran Dustfinger's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TechnoMage View Post
    Keep in mind that...

    1. Early in the game as a Guardian you find some nice Vigil Propaganda that pretty much explains that the Vigil doesn't like the Eth, Bahmi, and Kelari.

    2. If somebody was a true follower of the Vigil, the Vigil would have picked them instead of the Defiant.
    1. Source for the propoganda? I only recall posters from the Mathosians outlawing defiant tech, not Vigil dislike of any races. From the sentinal page: “Each god values the life of each and every mortal. In this, there is unity,” Niyol said with the sure, clear voice of enlightenment.
    http://www.riftgame.com/en/classes/cleric/sentinel.php

    2. "We weren't chosen for our faith but for our might". There's actually a priest in Sanctum that is having a conversation with a dwarf. he explainst that when the Vigil approached him he joined out of selfish reasons, knowing that the Destroyer would never share power.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dustfinger View Post
    1. Source for the propoganda? I only recall posters from the Mathosians outlawing defiant tech, not Vigil dislike of any races. From the sentinal page: “Each god values the life of each and every mortal. In this, there is unity,” Niyol said with the sure, clear voice of enlightenment.
    http://www.riftgame.com/en/classes/cleric/sentinel.php

    2. "We weren't chosen for our faith but for our might". There's actually a priest in Sanctum that is having a conversation with a dwarf. he explainst that when the Vigil approached him he joined out of selfish reasons, knowing that the Destroyer would never share power.
    1. It's in the towers guarded by the Green scale elves. It lists the Vigils view on the 7 main races.

    2. So the vigil couldn't find 1 eth, kelari, or bahmi in history that it felt had might?

  15. #15
    Telaran Dustfinger's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TechnoMage View Post
    1. It's in the towers guarded by the Green scale elves. It lists the Vigils view on the 7 main races.

    2. So the vigil couldn't find 1 eth, kelari, or bahmi in history that it felt had might?
    1. You have the dialog? Not that I think you are lieing but people end to remember their own interpretation over the actual text.

    2. Maybe they did and were refused. Maybe there is one or two but the factions aren't about an individual eths/bami/mathosian/highelf/etc. choice so much as the races choice. /shrug I have to go with the lore Trion provided. Speculation is great and I'm a fan but we can't throw out established lore in favour of it.

    What we know for a fact is:

    -the guardian ascended were chosen for their might

    -Trion has established that “Each god values the life of each and every mortal. In this, there is unity”.

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