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Thread: The Vigil pulling back from Telara

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    RIFT Community Ambassador Morvick's Avatar
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    Default The Vigil pulling back from Telara

    I'm interested in speculating about why the Gods may have gone silent, which as we know, is what initially prompted the Defiants into splitting from the Guardians (backed up by ideological axioms).

    Defiants say "Praying should create a bigger benefit than a few little miracles, and one shouldn't wait on a God's whim." Thus, they take their destinies into their own hands.

    Guardians say "The Vigil still guides us." And in truth, the Messenger and the ever-newly Ascended are clear evidences of a portion of the Gods' power... but hardly all of it.
    [list=1][*]Why have the Gods "pulled back"? Are they testing their Faithful, or showing them that they can stand on their own two feet?[*]What might have befallen the Gods of the Vigil if their silence was not their planning? Has Regulos committed theocide?[*]What do the Gods even look like, and why is their Messenger always dressed for combat if she mostly only shows up when the Guardians have failed (died, to ressurrect them)?[*]Are the Gods really benevolent Dragons? Where is their domain?[*]How can a group of deities powerful enough to shape and populate an entire planet, be so helpless in mundane combat? Can they only act on a macro scale?

    Many questions remain, but I'd welcome speculation and answers from Devs. Warning to any Defiant-junkies who want to pop in and yell "The gods suck" or anything like that; Don't. It's not constructive.
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  2. #2
    Soulwalker
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    How about this little theory:
    The Vigil are indeed benevolent dragons. Since the known dragons live in planes, we can conclude that the Vigil lives on their own planes. They don't interfere that much because they know that if they do they will tear the remainder of the veil, thereby freeing the other dragons. This will cause an apocalyptic event from which most likely no humans or animals will survive.
    For the question about why these omnipotent creatures don't use their omnipotent powers, how about this: All dragons used to be part of the Vigil, together they created the world. Then some of the dragons became obsessed with their powers and started a war. This war ended with the veil being raised and the defiant gods locked on their planes.

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    Ascendant NearioNL's Avatar
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    Official rift lore states that the Blood Storm was attracted to the Planes of Telara cause of its special location(on the intersection of the planes), and that utimately they were imprisoned by the people of Telara and their gods(the vigil). So the dragon were no part of the Vigil.

    I am guessing that the Vigil know that the dragons are stronger then they are, mainly because they needed to surprise the blood storm in the first war before they could win. And even at that moment they could not kill the dragons, only imprison them.

    I have no explaining for the reason the Vigil stays silent, but the fact that they have made ascended(where n the start the Elfs were the chosen ones, and the dwarfs in a lesser way) is maybe a clue. "We give you the power to defend your own world" something like that
    Last edited by NearioNL; 08-17-2011 at 02:31 AM.
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    I'd guess the gods are planar beings just like the dragons. As a defiant player I'm naturally not best informed about the background one could read from the books ingame at the guardian side, but well. I'll take a little detour theorizing about the nature of the planes and then come back to your questions.

    First:

    The planes represent "primal forces" in any way possible.

    The plane of life represents any aspect of life.

    The plane of fire represents the aspects of battle.

    The plane of water represents any aspect of knowlegde.

    The plane of earth represents the aspects of wealth.

    The plane of air represents the aspects of the mind.

    Finally the plane of death represents the aspects of eternity.

    We know from the post of one of the devs some weeks ago (don't have a link though) that the 6 great dragons do not rule the planes or anything like that. The hold dominion over great parts of these planes and share the common goal of destroying telara (and other worlds) but apart from that they are independent and battle among themselves if they get the chance.

    All of the great dragons are of devious character, representing malevolent sides of theire respective planes.

    In turn, all of the gods of the vigil represent the benevolent character of their "elements".

    Akylios is insane, keeping all his knowledge for himself, where Thontic is the patron of those who search out and solve the unknown.

    Greenscale is obsessed with growth and the survival of the fittest, where Tavril is the beauty of the wild, untamed nature.

    Laethys wants to keep all the riches she can get for herself, where Bahralt favors labour and craft to bring forth wealth.

    Maelforge is a brutal, merciless warmonger, where Thedeor stands for bravery and heroic strife.

    Cruzia is obsessed with forcing control and wiping out the free will, where Mariel Thaun tries to unite the free willed through love and cooperation.

    Finally Regulos, forcing the dead to kneel before him instead of leaving them to rest in peace. He has no direct counterpart in the Vigil as we know, but we also know that all patrons of the vigil accept death as an essential of existence.

    So this concludes to: The "Gods" are benevolent creatures from the planes, who once came together to create a world at the intersection of all their planes and now do their best to protect it.

    As for why they got quit:

    Erecting the ward in coalition with the People of Telara to shield this world from the Planes, the essentially locked themselves out as well. Much like the dwarfs closed the doors of Hammerknell from the outside, denying themselves entrance (even though for other reasons).

    That is why they couldn't do much about Aedraxis strife to crack the ward until he finally did, opening Telara again to the rage of the bloodstorm as well as the saving hands of the vigil. As the Ward cracked, not only did regulos wipe the soldiers that stood against his scion, but also did the vigil resurrect some of them to help defend the world.

    The same goes for Port Scion: The Town was shielded from the planes until Alsbeth sabotaged the machines that kept its ward up, as of that, the Vigil was unable to stop her from doing exactly that.

    Recently the Rifts got more numerous, as got the Ascended, being gifted Soldiers of the Vigil.

    The Messengers are probably geared for battle because they where created to help this battle, but as of now they only support the Ascended who are better tools of war to use on Telara.

    It could be much speculated if the Patrons of the Vigil battle the Great Dragons of their respective planes....

    Well, so much for my thoughts on that.
    Last edited by Pyrophoria; 08-17-2011 at 03:23 AM.

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    Plane Touched Viper2KRT's Avatar
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    @pyrophoria

    Wow! That's a lot to think about! I like your theory about the gods locking themselves out when they created the ward. It seems to make sense.

    Also, I wonder if there is some secret, unknown god that is the opposite of regulos. Maybe it's not one being but the ascended themselves. Since they can't die, they are sorta "gods" in their own right.

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    The gods of telara are blocked by the ward as well..

    If they start directly interfering much more than they already do.. The ward will become weaker more quickly..

    The real threat imho isn't the dragon.. Its Orphiel's experiments and his messing with fate that are causing pretty much everything...
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    Ascendant Maeloda's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LordOberon View Post
    The gods of telara are blocked by the ward as well..

    If they start directly interfering much more than they already do.. The ward will become weaker more quickly..

    The real threat imho isn't the dragon.. Its Orphiel's experiments and his messing with fate that are causing pretty much everything...
    I'm not going to instantly jump onto the 'Orphiel is a super big danger and must die' idea, but the spirit of this is good.
    There WILL be other dangers than the Dragons, this is almost certain. Whether it is their Planar counterparts (not on Telara), other mortals(?) interfering with things, or other beings we do not even know yet - there will be more, and there is likely a reason for us (probably) spending the first year of the game killing the dragons imprisoned on Telara. This may lead to something greater.

    One possibility is that Orphiel will have to be dealt with at some point, both by his Guardian enemies and Defiant former-followers. Maybe.


    Anyway, when the Ward was somehow erected, it blocks outs external influence as much as possible - that includes both the planes and the Vigil (who just may be of the planes themselves - as it IS true that the planes are neutral, with much of them taken over by the evil blood storm).

    The more the Ward is broken (through the Shade inducing death magic over much of Telara, or Port Scion, or the events from River of Souls leading into the other Terminus timeline...), the more the evil forces of the Planes can push themselves through, but also the more the Vigil can try to help. History has shown so far that the Vigil are NOT as strong as each of the Blood Storm, unless the Vigil are united in doing so. The Blood Storm War divided the dragons, and united the Vigil.

    They can only intervene where the Ward is thin. I believe that even the shrines to them, call forth a power that creates a 'soft invisible rift' of power to come down towards a Guardian, granting some power of theirs.

    We should expect that while rifts and invasions will only grow more numerous, the role the Vigil plays will only grow larger and larger, until we get to a full 'Blood Storm War 2.0' scenario. However, just as the magitech helped in fighting the dragons, we will see the Defiant play a large role in this, in fact twisting events and timelines towards other outcomes than expected.

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    Ascendant Maeloda's Avatar
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    To OP, I don't think the Vigil has fallen, I think that they are fighting their own fight, and offering assistance whenever possible. They may, MAY, even be the 'true gods' of the Planes, but the Blood Storm somehow came into existence and challenged them successfully. We don't know.

    I think that while the Defiants will come into their own internal problems, it would be interesting if the Guardians come into a 'crisis of faith' if in the future we actually get to MEET the Vigil and see that they may not be as 'awesome divine' as Guardians assumed them to be. While they did create a largely harmonious world, separately (as they were not the Vigil when Telara was created), we also know that their followers sometimes fought. I think it would be interesting if that was fleshed out, and we were shown that while they may be godly beings, they could also have in-fighting and vices, etc... I'm thinking something like roman mythology.

    The difference is that while the Vigil would have weaknesses, and in-fighting, they still want the best for Telara and their good-heartedness always wins though, while the Blood Storm is outright corrupt.

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    I think the Virgil and the Blood Storm are similar beings, as others have eluded to. Just beings on opposite sides of the same coin. Where the Vigil creates life from sourcestone, the Blood Storm consumes it, or consumes sourcestone for life/power, perhaps?

    And yes, erecting the Ward blocked the Vigil off from helping Telarans, but I have to wonder why the Vigil didn't confront the Blood Storm in the beginning before the Ward was raised? I can only imagine that the Blood Storm is more powerful, or brutal than the Vigil which caused the Virgil to choose more subtler means to help Telaran's in the form of Ascended and the Ward without directly confronting the Blood Storm.

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    Shield of Telara Meharial's Avatar
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    If you would excuse this "Defiant junkie" I have the theory that in theory, the goals of the Vigil and the Blood Storm are alike. To create and maintain a world that adheres to their ideal, to be worshiped by the inhabitants and to get their source stone fix. I can't be the only one suspicious about exactly what happens to the source stone "offerings." But of course, the gods that make up the Vigil are far more benevolent about their goals and that makes all the difference.
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    Ascendant Maeloda's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Meharial View Post
    If you would excuse this "Defiant junkie" I have the theory that in theory, the goals of the Vigil and the Blood Storm are alike. To create and maintain a world that adheres to their ideal, to be worshiped by the inhabitants and to get their source stone fix. I can't be the only one suspicious about exactly what happens to the source stone "offerings." But of course, the gods that make up the Vigil are far more benevolent about their goals and that makes all the difference.
    Yes. To be a Guardian is to align yourself to the Vigil and their original plan for Telara, with harmony of the planes and full access to the Vigil and their blessings. To be Defiant is to seek a hopefully even greater future - not only of another Eth Empire, but of eventually a world-spanning technological and magical empire for all of the Eth, Kelari, and Bahmi. That's far off from now, but ideally, I think these are the goals for each of the factions.

    To Guardians, Defiants are as rebellious children at best, and psychopaths who must be put down at worst.
    To Defiants, Guardians are slaves kissing the boots of their masters, not a lot better than the cults themselves - and the Vigil is keeping all under *their* rules, eternally under mystery.

    Both factions are attacking the other faction both 'for their own good', and for self-defense. Just that Guardians lean more toward 'for your own good' and Defiants lean more towarsd self-defense.

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    Ascendant Maeloda's Avatar
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    Keep in mind that even prior to the Shade, the Defiant races were already seen as unworthy of the Vigil.

    Eth - their ancestors created an Empire that consumed sourcestone and rejected the Vigil gods. In their and likely in Guardian minds, even if current Eth were to stop and to start worshiping the Vigil, they are already forsaken. Vigil seem to hold grudges sometimes, even if they redeem certain individuals.

    Bahmi - seen as abbarations from the Planes. Even though they (along with the Eth!) did help against the Blood Storm, a bias always seems to exist against them, just for their origins.

    Kelari - seen as a clear corruption, often no better than planetouched/corrupted creatures. The Guardians seem to see all of those who are at all touched by the planes, to be corrupted and unworthy of the Vigil, until they come to a more close understanding of them (eg. they seem fine with Deeps now, but if he was 'tidetouched', uh oh!). If they knew more of the Kelari, they still wouldn't accept them.
    As for the Vigil, the Kelari don't fit their 'plan' of the elves and the Kelari even rebelled against the rest of the elves, so they are not worthy of Ascension even after the exodus from their islands.

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    RIFT Community Ambassador Morvick's Avatar
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    I just noticed that I forgot a [/list] at the end of my OP paragraph.

    I am now a sad panda. I don't know any Devs to ask to fix it.



    But I love the theories of who the Vigil actually are. The planar-beings theory is the strongest, with the sole weakness being "who opposes Regulos"? 6 planes but only 5 in the Vigil. Could there be a Lost God (Plane of Air, maybe? Account for the Bahmi?)

    As for what is done with the Sourcestone, as best as I can tell it is used up immediately by the Messenger of the Vigil in a manifest miracle, or is stored away to later resurrect more Chosen Ascended.



    My thoughts are that each Defiant Race proved itself unworthy of the Vigil's support...

    - The Eth sought to supercede the Gods and join them, possibly overthrowing them. The storyline in Droughtlands reveals this.

    - The Bahmi were probably on the fence, the poor refugees, but they chose their fate when they helped Orphiel provide sourcestone machines for his little coup against the Mathosians and Telara.
    If you're looking for a pre-existing grudge, refer above to my "Lost God" theory -- that maybe the would-be 6th God of the Vigil defected and created its own form of life, the Bahmi who escaped the plane, and thus these "children of Air" are forsaken by the sins of their father.

    - The Kelari view themselves as equals to the Gods, and it should be common knowledge that it's a bad idea to tempt the pride of any deity, however benevolent or helpful (a theme taken mostly from Greek and Roman mythology).
    Last edited by Morvick; 08-17-2011 at 01:24 PM.
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    Ascendant Maeloda's Avatar
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    I think I just find it..unfair that an *entire race* is condemned as a result. Not every Kelari may be a spirit dealer, not ever Eth may forsake the Vigil (as they are still humans), etc.

    I would love a 6th god to be a sort of Loki, a trickster/chaos god that defied the Vigil long ago. It could have even been because of him, that the Defiant came to be.

    My own theory is that he is masquerading/forced into a mortal Orphiel form, unable to enact divine will upon Telara and its people, but still adapting and relishing the experimentation he can do.
    There's plenty of stories that have that very thing happen to gods, forced to take up science and mortality in order to complete their goals, and eventually coming to embrace that existence.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maeloda View Post
    I think I just find it..unfair that an *entire race* is condemned as a result. Not every Kelari may be a spirit dealer, not ever Eth may forsake the Vigil (as they are still humans), etc.
    Yes. Add the fact that the Vigil has no qualms about using the original hero souls who are members of those races, and you've got a set of deities that have some pretty strange notions of what's right and wrong.

    "Oh, Won Odego, you're kind of awesome and were instrumental in helping against the Blood Storm. We're going to condemn your entire race for being immigrants, but we'd like to use your soul for your knowledge."

    "Hey Anan, you know that thing that gave you your powers? Yeah, not only are we going to completely ban any and all use of everything even remotely related, we're also going to condemn your entire race as well. But hey, it sure would be swell of you to help our immortal army!"

    Et cetera, et cetera. Honestly, I know it's a gameplay thing because the designers wanted to have separate races for each faction, but it's incredibly poorly justified and it makes the Vigil look bad. I very much think the writers need to come up with something better.

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