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Thread: Origin Lore

  1. #1
    Ascendant Delphya's Avatar
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    Question Origin Lore

    I have tried to play both a Guardian and a Defiant and I noticed something about the origin stories.
    The Guardian origin concludes when you kill the defiled king and shatter his body. Then return 20 years later!
    The Defiant origin concludes when you leave your dying world (the future) and return to the past.

    According to this, the Guardians fail and the Vigil abandon them.

    What you see in the Guardian origin is the leader of the Defiant trying to learn the secret of the ascended, while you may thwart him on the hill, he apparently returns. But from the Defiant origin, you bring those secrets to the past to enable him to create ascended after the Guardians fail.

    So in both cases the Guardians fail and in both cases the Defiant are crushed.

    The Ascended of both the Guardians and the Defiant are placed at a nexus in time which can alter the future... But if both futures are filled with failure what can be the outcome... other than failure?

    What exactly are we fighting for?

  2. #2
    Soulwalker
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    Quote Originally Posted by Delphya View Post
    I have tried to play both a Guardian and a Defiant and I noticed something about the origin stories.
    The Guardian origin concludes when you kill the defiled king and shatter his body. Then return 20 years later!
    The Defiant origin concludes when you leave your dying world (the future) and return to the past.

    According to this, the Guardians fail and the Vigil abandon them.

    What you see in the Guardian origin is the leader of the Defiant trying to learn the secret of the ascended, while you may thwart him on the hill, he apparently returns. But from the Defiant origin, you bring those secrets to the past to enable him to create ascended after the Guardians fail.

    So in both cases the Guardians fail and in both cases the Defiant are crushed.

    The Ascended of both the Guardians and the Defiant are placed at a nexus in time which can alter the future... But if both futures are filled with failure what can be the outcome... other than failure?

    What exactly are we fighting for?
    for this reason is that sometimes i hate time travel

  3. #3
    Shadowlander
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    The Defiant were crushed because:
    The Guardians attacked and destroyed their machines, since the Ascended Guardians were too strong for them to fight off
    Without said machines they couldn't resist the armies of Regulos
    I guess since they were busy on their anti-Defiant witch-hunt, the Guardians couldn't defeat Regulos, either
    Everyone died

    When the Defiants come back in time, and bring the secret of the Ascendant with them, they alter the past, and therefore the future. Haven't you ever watched Star Trek?

  4. #4
    Ascendant Delphya's Avatar
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    No, but did watch Back to the Future and that is what I see happening.
    No matter what we try to change in time, time will always revert to it's own path.

    Another paradox... If we go back in time as a defiant and change our past, that means that in the future our creation never happens so nobody ever comes back from the future to change the past and then in effect we cease to exist.

    Our own actions force us effectively in to oblivion since the creation of our being in the future is altered due to the fact that there is no reason to send someone back to the past since the technology to replicate ascendants is already there.

    But in doing so our existence is extinguished since we in effect were never created.

    This can get confusing...

    Unless!!! Each of us has our own separate timeline that only we can affect... But if that were true then each of us would be the center of our own universe and thereby be gods...
    Last edited by Delphya; 01-10-2011 at 05:13 PM.

  5. #5
    Plane Touched
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    There's a really easy way around the whole paradox thing:
    Time travel literally just deposits the energy and mass that is you, and plops it somewhen else with no causal connection to the point in time you started at. That is, as far as the universe is concerned, when you pop out after time travel, you just showed up out of nowhere.

    The universe has no connection between the you just before time traveling and the you in the past after time traveling. For all it cares, you could stab yourself to death in the past and it wouldn't cause you to stop existing.

    Makes a surprising amount of sense if you think about it - after all, you have to violate a LOT of known physics to time travel to the past (I know, it's a fantasy game, but that's not the point here), so it's not that far fetched to imagine that time travel pulls you out of the universe's continuum entirely and then plops you back in somewhere else.

  6. #6
    Sword of Telara Sylvrin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stormbeta View Post
    There's a really easy way around the whole paradox thing:
    Time travel literally just deposits the energy and mass that is you, and plops it somewhen else with no causal connection to the point in time you started at. That is, as far as the universe is concerned, when you pop out after time travel, you just showed up out of nowhere.

    The universe has no connection between the you just before time traveling and the you in the past after time traveling. For all it cares, you could stab yourself to death in the past and it wouldn't cause you to stop existing.

    Makes a surprising amount of sense if you think about it - after all, you have to violate a LOT of known physics to time travel to the past (I know, it's a fantasy game, but that's not the point here), so it's not that far fetched to imagine that time travel pulls you out of the universe's continuum entirely and then plops you back in somewhere else.
    ^^ this makes sense to me. And don't forget Doc Brown's final words to Jennifer and Marty...."Your future isn't written yet, so make it a good one!"

    The way I see it, none of us Ascended Guardians were in the Defiant timeline so WE did not fail. Maybe the NPC Guardians did, but we did not. We weren't there. The Vigil speak to us of a prophecy of doom. The prophecy they are talking about is what will happen if we don't do what we are supposed to do and we fail...in other words they have seen the same timeline that the Defiant are coming back from and they don't want that to happen. This is the very reason why they have raised us up to be their champions and their army.

    Now in my mind this creates a bit of a dilemma for us as Guardians. Where should our priorities lie? Is our main priority in defending Telara from the Rifts, or from the Defiants? We may have a choice to make there.

    In the doom and gloom that is the Defiant timeline, we are told that the Guardians lost their perspective as to what is most important, or so the Defiants would have us believe. But was that REALLY what happened? Could it be that the Guardians actually failed at crushing the Defiants fast enough to prevent their machines from causing havoc and aiding Regulos to invade Telara all along? Are the Defiants just spinning the history to make Guardians sound like nothing more than warmongering zealots when it was really them and their machines that let Regulos take over Telara in the first place? Did you notice in Mathosia what those machines were doing? They were quite literally serving Regulos by creating undead to attack the people of Mathosia. And if I recall correctly there were plenty of undead running around Terminus as well. Experiments gone wrong that we (as Defiants) were told to put down.

    These are the things that make you go...hmmmm! Seeing both sides and the way the history is portrayed I have a much stronger belief than ever that the Defiants were the ones primarily at fault and they continue to be so. Orphiel more than anyone. Aedraxis was an idiot for certain, but without the help of the forbidden Ethian technology, he could never have torn the ward and called Regulos through it to assault Telara. Orphiel continued to use the technology even despite the fact that he was creating creatures that were under the control of Regulos and they were attacking the people of Mathosia.

    In my mind Orphiel is very much as ambitious as Aedraxis was with no thought for the consequences of his actions. He and his follower Asha Catari (although I assume he did some lieing to her too) are spinning the story to make it sound as if the Defiant were all innocent victims of the wrath of the Guardians and the Vigil, when in very point of fact it was his obsession with Ethian Technology that has put the world of Telara in the peril it is in today. I was listening in on the Events happening in Stonefield yesterday and couldn't help but yell out in a voice of warning to the foolish Defiants who were doing his bidding. Orphiel and his mad experimental technology are going to be the ruin of Telara if we don't stop him somehow.
    Last edited by Sylvrin; 01-10-2011 at 11:32 PM.
    Those who guard nature, guard life itself. Those who defile nature bring death and destruction upon us all.

  7. #7
    Champion Pretext's Avatar
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    Nice get out by Stormbeta, but physics shows us particles are conected, and may not lose that connection even if they moved around in time. This is fantasy time travel though so whatever fits works.

  8. #8
    RIFT Fan Site Operator
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    it's all this timey-wimey wibbly-wobbly stuff that makes it fun though right? If you take parallel timelines into effect...both groups are potentially in a new setting where the future is uncertain...all of this depends on your time travel science, and as far as I know, all of them are currently speculative

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