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Thread: Guardians Vs Defiants -Major Lore Issue - The don't seem to be at war really

  1. #1
    Rift Chaser
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    Default Guardians Vs Defiants -Major Lore Issue - The don't seem to be at war really

    When you create a new character you are treated to some of the background between the Guardians and the Defiants. You are told that they are at war with each other mostly due to ideological reasons. Some of the written lore also states that they are at war with one another however one major break in the lore is that this is never really reflected in the game.

    Both Guardian and Defiants have major cities occupied by guards and a sparse amount of citizens. I see no war preparation going on at outposts or in major cities . In contrast Warhammer and even wow it was obvious that the other faction were true enemies. Cities has civilians in fear/training/fighting the other factions in open warfare.

    Quests you get from either one seems to revolve around cultists and killing random monsters , very few quests are in direct opposition to the other faction.

    All dungeons seem to be held mostly by cultists there are a few occasions when some random other faction guards may show up but no dungeons directly deal with the other faction as the main threat.

    The biggest mistake here is common bases . Once I ran into common bases such as Chancel or Zeraph's the immersion is lost entirely. Here they are steps away from each other and no combat.

    Okay some may argue that they Rifts opened up so they are working together, however they are still enemies and I do not see any sort of truce being declared lore wise.

    I request the Lore devs to look into this and give us more actual conflict NPC wise between the factions.

    Also where are the civillians ? I imagine they must be housed but where ? Both Sanctum and Meridian seem like forward bases .

    Let me know what you all think .

  2. #2
    Ascendant Sinndel's Avatar
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    I think they were going for the feeling of a tentative truce to combat the greater evil, the dragons and their corrupted planes. Several NPC's in Fortunes shore make comments like "why do we tolerate their pressence and their illegal dealings with sourcestone" wich are then regarded as general concensus but it is agreed that open conflict would be reckless and foolhardy, and would end badly for both sides, so the conflict is delayed.

    In Zarephs return they are helping eachother to siege the endless fortess at Caer Mathos, but again, it is a tentative alliance, with the Order of Mathos in the middle to keep them apart.

    Believe it or not this approach opens up more options for roleplay, as you can either hate the enemy and KOS them at every opportunity, or you can show benevolence, like the Guardian rogue in the trailer who doesn't kill the Bahmi warrior who had chased him and injured him.

  3. #3
    Plane Walker Sebiale's Avatar
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    As Sinndel noted, it's not total open war, in good part because they couldn't afford it. Both sides are currently busy expending most of their resources to keep the Planar invasions in check, I doubt they could launch large-scale war efforts against one another if they even had the opportunity.
    Akylios, the Profane: "is beyond understanding. The living interest him because the tortured howls of races sound almost like music. He does not seek victory over men any more than the ocean strives against the land. One day he will simply wash all mortals away just to hear them scream their silly symphony. He was mad even before he learned all fears and secrets. There are no words for what Akylios is now."

    Laethys, Queen of Avarice: "The Gold Dragonís flesh flows like molten metal, and diamonds are her eyes. The riches of worlds will fall through her clutches, and she will never have enough while anyone else has anything at all. Laethys will feast atop a pile of famished wretches. All will adore her alone, and she will never give them quite enough."

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    Soulwalker
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    It is total war on most of those....but yeah given the quests it isn't a complete war as we can not afford it and most of the defiants don't want to wipe the guardians out (even though we think they are insane and stupid) just be left alone to pursue our technology.

  5. #5
    Shadowlander
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    I think that Sinndel answered the Guardian vs Defiant part of the question pretty good.

    As to where are all the civilians: I don't know from the Defiant side, but on the Guardian's side, what civilians you see are what are left. The populations have been decimated. During the Shade at Ardenburgh the lore implies that almost everyone there died. That Port Scion was where the bulk of the population gathered after and that was again wiped out. Hence one of the reasons the Vigil "made" the Ascended is implied that it was because there was hardly anyone left to fight at all and they were losing the war against the dragons very badly. Also why I think the lore doesn't have the Guardians and Defiants in all out war.

    Although at Divine Landing near the bridge I believe that is Guardians vs Defiant there. So it seems that occasionally they are in direct "war". But only when their hands aren't full fighting the planer invasions.

  6. #6
    Plane Touched
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    The common bases are also enforced by the neutral factions. Note that if you actively engage another player in PvP in one of those areas the guards go after you. While this is predominantly a gameplay reason, it ties into the lore well. The Order of Mathos, Icewatch, Runeguard, and Dragonslayer Covenant have concerns beyond the war between the Defiants and Guardians, and they care much more about those goals than they do the ideological differences between the two factions. And if one side declared open war near one of the neutral factions, they'd lose vitally important allies because the neutral allies wouldn't support them.

  7. #7
    Ascendant Sinndel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JigWat View Post
    Although at Divine Landing near the bridge I believe that is Guardians vs Defiant there. So it seems that occasionally they are in direct "war". But only when their hands aren't full fighting the planer invasions.
    The quest sequence at divine landing gives you an idea why the war started in the first place. The guardians, seeing the defiants blasphemy of replicating ascension by stealing souls and forcing them into sourcestone bodies against their will, decided to destroy the Ethian devices in freemarch. They didn't go there to out right kill anyone, just to stop the forges. The defiants, knowing they stood no chance, blew up the bridge killing many soldiers. Thus began the hostilities.
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  8. #8
    Soulwalker
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    I can't say about other zones since i just bought the game yesterday, but in freemarch there seems to be quite a few guardian invasions and guardian footholds that you are supposed to fight against. That seems like some what of warfare to me.

  9. #9
    Plane Touched
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sinndel View Post
    The quest sequence at divine landing gives you an idea why the war started in the first place. The guardians, seeing the defiants blasphemy of replicating ascension by stealing souls and forcing them into sourcestone bodies against their will, decided to destroy the Ethian devices in freemarch. They didn't go there to out right kill anyone, just to stop the forges. The defiants, knowing they stood no chance, blew up the bridge killing many soldiers. Thus began the hostilities.
    They didn't know about the Ascended at that point, they were marching to destroy the Defiants' machines in general after Port Scion fell and everyone fled. They weren't going to destroy the forges specifically - the Ascended aren't even made in the present at that point in the story, they're coming through the failsafe. The first Defiant Ascended arrives from Terminus after the bridge has been destroyed.

    And I do still have to chuckle at the Guardians' indignation in the Divine Landing sequence. They go on the offensive, have the bridge blown up, and then play the victim and curse the Defiants for doing such a horrible thing. Because surely no Defiants would have died when the Guardians sent a heavily-armed force across the bridge. What a preposterous concept.

  10. #10
    Rift Disciple
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    There are more citizens than people I think are aware of. Just because everything attacks stuff that invades doesn't mean they are all guards. In fact, there are not all that many guards in general, in most towns. Just the way it is. Having been to opposing faction towns before, I can assure you...most are just citizens. Just getting by. Long as you're not killing people, they don't care that you're there. Only the militants will outright attack you just for being there.

  11. #11
    Telaran
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    Well I'm inclined to agree, they don't seem to be at an all-out war. Rather they seem to both war with other factions. Faewar, Regulos's lackeys, etc. Guardians and Defiants seem to want the same thing, but have a bitter disagreement over how to meet that goal. There are numerous historic precedents for this in our own world, I find this part of Rift lore to be entirely believable.

    And yeah, the Guardian reaction to the Port Scion fiasco, especially with regards to the Defiant, is actually pretty unsettling. Then again, that's kind of their shtick. Play far enough in the game and the player gets to find out some other inconsistencies with the Guardian faction, coverups and false causes. I rather like that kind of depth in a game, most fantasy media is completely color-coded.

  12. #12
    Telaran Ivandinia's Avatar
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    They could revive the Lore about the 'Civil War' as I sometimes call it. Maybe in a major patch, they could create a third major party (Maybe Uriel DID get killed and Rahn sends the Bahmi away? Or some Guardian faction splits from the pack? I don't have much on Guardian lore :S New factions could be introduced) which could revive the lore and give a new oppotunit to learn a bit more about Telara when more people are introduced?

    Reviving the lore surrounding the lore can also assist in creating more PvP content. The war is blatanly obvious the first time you go into Freemarch/Silverwood and you see the two faction shooting at each other just nearby the ruined Port Scion (I wanna travel through time and do some PvE there ).

  13. #13
    Plane Walker
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    Well on the original timeline the guardians end up invading meridan and overall defiants, and guardians are defeated by Regulos. In this new reality where defiants have Ascended, events unfold quite a bit differently.

    Maybe it is because the defiant use Ascended to fight instead of machines only so the guardians now are less likely to attack machines, and therfore the Defiants.

    Or maybe it is just that the defiants now have something to fight back with and won't be completely steamrolled by the guardians.

    Or maybe it is just that now the Defiants can more effectively fight back against Regulos, and therefore the Guardians also have an easier time with a half/ally. In the old timeline the guardians we're losing against regulos and believed that if they wipe out defiants, the vigil will save them (something like that).

    This is what I think.

  14. #14
    Shadowlander
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alarox View Post
    Well on the original timeline the guardians end up invading meridan and overall defiants, and guardians are defeated by Regulos. In this new reality where defiants have Ascended, events unfold quite a bit differently.

    Maybe it is because the defiant use Ascended to fight instead of machines only so the guardians now are less likely to attack machines, and therfore the Defiants.

    Or maybe it is just that the defiants now have something to fight back with and won't be completely steamrolled by the guardians.

    Or maybe it is just that now the Defiants can more effectively fight back against Regulos, and therefore the Guardians also have an easier time with a half/ally. In the old timeline the guardians we're losing against regulos and believed that if they wipe out defiants, the vigil will save them (something like that).

    This is what I think.
    I think it's the presence of two fairly balaance factions that will allow Regulos to be defeated. In the original timeline, the Guardians probably crushed the Defiant and become complacent, allowing Regulos to defeat them easily. In the altered timeline, both Guardians and Defiant are fairly balance so they progressed and improved their abilities rapidly in competition to beat each other, the end result was both Guardian and Defiant will probably improve enough to fight back against Regulos.

    Both sides I think are probably still at the build up stage of their forces.

  15. #15
    Shadowlander
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    Aren't Def's brought back from killing a guardian? The machines sap the life out?

    Pretty macabre.

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