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Thread: "Good" vs. "Evil"

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    Ascendant Naronas's Avatar
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    Default "Good" vs. "Evil"

    So, while playing today I began to think about the Good vs Evil struggle that is present in most MMOs. Specifically, that of WoW, WAR, and Rift.

    WoW:

    WoW, as many know, is centered around the Alliance("Good") vs the Horde ("Evil"). The Alliance talks about the invading Horde monsters. However, as anyone who has played the series knows, this is reversed from the truth. The Alliance imprisons the Orcs, and makes them slave labor. It [the Alliance] is full of extreme racism and hatred. Where as the Horde is more looking for freedom from this oppression. WoW has never had, however, a truly "Good" or "Evil" race. Most tend to be fundamentally flawed, and the lines between good and evil are very blurry, even in a race like the Forsaken.


    WAR:


    War on the other hand, there is no blurred lines. Order is very good. Destruction is very bad. My first character was a Dwarf Runepriest, an Order character. And it was mostly normal fare for leveling. But then, I played a Dark Elf Witch Elf. And wow. Opening quests have you committing mass murder, poisoning "allies", and intrigue. And all of this is done without the pretense of "morality". It is done for power, and you are taught that early on in game. And then you have Chaos. Who just plain want to destroy the world. In WAR, there were no blurred lines. Good was EXTREMELY good. Evil was EXTREMELY evil.

    Rift:

    In Rift, the idea of WoW seems to have been taken. While the Guardians are "righteous" they are by no means good. They are bigoted and close-minded. And the Defiants are not evil. They just have different outlook on the world, and are proud to a fault.



    So answer me these questions three.


    1) Which system do you prefer, and why?
    2) Could Rift be improved by sharpening the lines of morality?
    3) What. Is the air speed velocity of an unladen swallow?


    Personally, I know some of the most fun I had with a story line was with Warhammer's Destruction.
    Quote Originally Posted by Walsingham View Post
    Yes, if you need to know, Vespera hit me with a big pointy spiky thing. It was immensely painful.

  2. #2
    Ascendant Chomag's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Naronas View Post
    So, while playing today I began to think about the Good vs Evil struggle that is present in most MMOs. Specifically, that of WoW, WAR, and Rift.

    WoW:

    WoW, as many know, is centered around the Alliance("Good") vs the Horde ("Evil"). The Alliance talks about the invading Horde monsters. However, as anyone who has played the series knows, this is reversed from the truth. The Alliance imprisons the Orcs, and makes them slave labor. It [the Alliance] is full of extreme racism and hatred. Where as the Horde is more looking for freedom from this oppression. WoW has never had, however, a truly "Good" or "Evil" race. Most tend to be fundamentally flawed, and the lines between good and evil are very blurry, even in a race like the Forsaken.
    Spoken like a true horde fanboy.

    1. The alliance imprisoned the orcs at the end of the 2nd war because the alternative was extermination. I mean what the hell do you do with a defeatead enemy, still dangerous, who will rip your throat off at the slightest opportunity ?!? Guess the mercy and humanity was lost in translation for the ocs.

    2. Alliance is full of racism ?!? Damn! Those gnomes, draenei, dwarves, humans and worgen are actually just one people of the same race and same culture.
    The alliance is so racist, man. I mean why the hell would they hate the orcs who invaded their country and murdered countless before they were stopped ?!? Why would they hate the undead whose plans is to kill off everything living, including their own allies if possible ?!? Tauren, elves and goblins aren't shouldn't expect any any love once they allied with the alliance's enemies.

    3. The horde was honorable in vanilla and TBC. Horde lost all honor in wotlk and what was left is gone in cata.

    I see you play defiant. Am not surprised you employ the same double standards to justify your favored faction.
    Last edited by Chomag; 06-10-2011 at 11:25 PM.

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    Rift Disciple Bobjohnson's Avatar
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    I like the system where good and evil is all based on perspective.

    Very few "evil" people throughout history were evil for the sake of being evil. The vast majority of the time they are doing what they feel is right or justified in some way (aka "good").

    I played Destruction in WAR and I always thought it was pretty dumb how they were evil just for the sake of being evil.

    1. The alliance imprisoned the orcs at the end of the 2nd war because the alternative was extermination. I mean what the hell do you do with a defeatead enemy, still dangerous, who will rip your throat off at the slightest opportunity ?!? Guess the mercy and humanity was lost in translation for the ocs.
    The Orcs were enslaved by demons. Is it really the fault of the Orcs? Are they evil because they were slaves?
    Last edited by Bobjohnson; 06-10-2011 at 11:25 PM.

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    Ascendant Naronas's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chomag View Post
    Spoken like a true horde fanboy.

    1. The alliance imprisoned the orcs at the end of the 2nd war because the alternative was extermination. I mean what the hell do you do with a defeatead enemy, still dangerous, who will rip your throat off at the slightest opportunity ?!? Guess the mercy and humanity was lost in translation for the ocs.

    2. Alliance is full of racism ?!? Damn! Those gnomes, draenei, dwarves, humans and worgen are actually just one people of the same race and same culture.
    The alliance is so racist, man. I mean why the hell would they hate the orcs who invaded their country and murdered countless before they were stopped ?!? Why would they hate the undead whose plans is to kill off everything living, including their own allies if possible ?!? Tauren, elves and goblins aren't shouldn't expect any any love once they allied with the alliance's enemies.

    3. The horde was honorable in vanilla and TBC. Horde lost all honor in wotlk and what was left is gone in cata.

    I see you play defiant. Am not surprised you employ the same double standards to justify your favored faction.
    1) I'm not quite sure why you would advocate slavery.

    2) I can hate one race while liking another, that doesn't make me less racist.

    3) That is debatable. They are more warlike, but also not evil still.

    I play Defiant. I also played Alliance. As well as Horde, and Guardian. Note I said for Rift neither side is really good or evil. Both are flawed.
    Quote Originally Posted by Walsingham View Post
    Yes, if you need to know, Vespera hit me with a big pointy spiky thing. It was immensely painful.

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    Ascendant Chomag's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bobjohnson View Post
    The Orcs were enslaved by demons. Is it really the fault of the Orcs? Are they evil because they were slaves?
    So what ?!? Let them go free to roam the world after all they have done, just because they were high on demon blood and had no control ?!? And then what ?!? Have them reform into warbads and raid towns ?!? Screw that.
    Last edited by Chomag; 06-10-2011 at 11:29 PM.

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    Ascendant Naronas's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bobjohnson View Post
    I like the system where good and evil is all based on perspective.

    Very few "evil" people throughout history were evil for the sake of being evil. The vast majority of the time they are doing what they feel is right or justified in some way (aka "good").

    I played Destruction in WAR and I always thought it was pretty dumb how they were evil just for the sake of being evil.


    The Orcs were enslaved by demons. Is it really the fault of the Orcs? Are they evil because they were slaves?
    Personally, I think there is something truly interesting morally about being evil for the sake of being evil.
    Quote Originally Posted by Walsingham View Post
    Yes, if you need to know, Vespera hit me with a big pointy spiky thing. It was immensely painful.

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    Ascendant Chomag's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Naronas View Post
    1) I'm not quite sure why you would advocate slavery.

    2) I can hate one race while liking another, that doesn't make me less racist.

    3) That is debatable. They are more warlike, but also not evil still.

    I play Defiant. I also played Alliance. As well as Horde, and Guardian. Note I said for Rift neither side is really good or evil. Both are flawed.
    1. I don't think you quite grasp the notion of slavery. I didn't see any orcs serving tables, plowing the fields, working in mines or fighting in gladiatorial pits. Slavery is forbidden in the king's lands, whatever happens is against the law, rare and irrelevant.

    2. It's not racism to hate your proven enemy.
    Last edited by Chomag; 06-10-2011 at 11:34 PM.

  8. #8
    Shield of Telara Verja's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Naronas View Post
    So, while playing today I began to think about the Good vs Evil struggle that is present in most MMOs. Specifically, that of WoW, WAR, and Rift.

    WoW:

    WoW, as many know, is centered around the Alliance("Good") vs the Horde ("Evil"). The Alliance talks about the invading Horde monsters. However, as anyone who has played the series knows, this is reversed from the truth. The Alliance imprisons the Orcs, and makes them slave labor. It [the Alliance] is full of extreme racism and hatred. Where as the Horde is more looking for freedom from this oppression. WoW has never had, however, a truly "Good" or "Evil" race. Most tend to be fundamentally flawed, and the lines between good and evil are very blurry, even in a race like the Forsaken.
    Yeah Horde is evil. The Horde did invade. They were not slave labor they were put into camps to keep them from killing more innocent people. The only racism and hatred is for the races that kill them on a daily basis.

    The Horde is looking for no such thing as far as freedom. Forsaken want to kill everything and be the only race. Orcs still have a desire to kill and be the ruling race. Tauren are peaceful. Trolls are iffy. They have done terrible things, but seem to wish to be left alone. Blood Elves are fine now that their fel magic addiction is over.

    You either have zero knowledge of lore or you are just to much of a fanboy to see the truth. I'm guessing the second since you push these same ideals onto Rift.
    The daemonic are without number, and their legions span the galaxy. But faith does not tire. Should it take us an eternity, the Ordo malleus will find and exterminate them all. - Lord Hephaestos Grudd

  9. #9
    Shadowlander
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    Order wasn't good, it was better, but I really can't call Empire good guys. High Elves, yeah... Dwarves are Dwarves, they don't care much about anything, just drink beer and mine.

    Shades of grey are always more interesting.

  10. #10
    Soulwalker
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    Quote Originally Posted by C0unt View Post
    Order wasn't good, it was better, but I really can't call Empire good guys. High Elves, yeah... Dwarves are Dwarves, they don't care much about anything, just drink beer and mine.

    Shades of grey are always more interesting.
    More importantly than it just being 'more interesting' is that it is more realistic.

    The **** party of Germany led by Adolf Hitler at the time did not consider what they were doing as 'evil' they thought that they were legitimized in how they saw to solve the problems plaguing their country. No group who history looks back upon as 'evil' thought of themselves as evil.

    The perceptions of good and evil blur depending on the perspective of the observer. Lets take a cat for instance. If you have a pet cat and it helps keep your house clear of mice by eating them you consider that a good thing. I would be willing to bet the mice have a differing opinion.

    Personally by having the races in a game fill that 'shade of grey' area helps to make the games more realistic and is a good thing. Good vs. Evil would get boring quick.

  11. #11
    Rift Chaser inaliz's Avatar
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    I like the system in rift. I guess you would say defiant are chaotic good and guardians are lawful neutral. I like it.

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    Ascendant
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    Quote Originally Posted by Naronas View Post
    So, while playing today I began to think about the Good vs Evil struggle that is present in most MMOs. Specifically, that of WoW, WAR, and Rift.

    Rift:

    In Rift, the idea of WoW seems to have been taken. While the Guardians are "righteous" they are by no means good. They are bigoted and close-minded. And the Defiants are not evil. They just have different outlook on the world, and are proud to a fault.
    Rift is pretty intresting on this issue, there one clearly "bad" faction (the dragons and their cultists), both playable factions see themselves as "good" and the other as "bad" but Trion worked pretty hard to let players with huge dubts about their faction morality.
    while you see some characters really good and selfish on both sides, you also see some Defiants with ethics so dark to make Josef Mengele wet his pants and some Guardians so fanatics to make the Spanish Inquisition looks like schoolchildrens.
    And this not counting the peoples turned by the cults...
    Once known as Nix-Zero


    Man is least himself when he talks in his own person.
    Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.

  13. #13
    Telaran
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    1. most likely the first as I dont personally like having to be specificly on a good/evil side.

    2. As it is i think is ok though i do not know every etail of the story and what not.

    3. What do you mean? An African or European swallow?

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    This Space For Rent Scormus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by C0unt View Post
    Order wasn't good, it was better, but I really can't call Empire good guys. High Elves, yeah... Dwarves are Dwarves, they don't care much about anything, just drink beer and mine.

    Shades of grey are always more interesting.
    Indeed. I haven't played WAR itself very much, but am very familiar with the source material from years of playing the pen-&-paper RPG "Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay". In that, there were 'good' characters (High Elves, as I recall), but it wasn't Order. From Order you got Witch-Hunters (for example), who could easily be classified as Evil in their actions under certain circumstances. Order and Chaos were mirrors of each other, and both pretty vicious in their own ways.

  15. #15
    Rift Disciple Raehvyn's Avatar
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    Warhammer isn't cut and dry good vs bad.

    In the lore anyways, it seems that for the sake of the Empire of Man humanity does some outright vile things. Witch Hunters and the Inquisition for example. They're "good" in the sense that they're not as evil as Chaos.
    I am an Imperial commissar. I will enflame the weak, support the wavering, guide the lost. I will be all things to all men who need me. But I will also punish without hesitation the incompetent, the cowardly, and the treasonous. - Colonel-Commissar Ibram Gaunt

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