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Thread: Paladins: Holy Warriors with Divine Powers or Not?

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    Official Rift Founding Fan Site Operator Sornin's Avatar
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    Default Paladins: Holy Warriors with Divine Powers or Not?

    In today's podcast, Joshua Kurtz mentioned that Paladins are not holy warriors, but simply protectors of the weak, and that their power is not from the Vigil. This is fair enough, since this seems like a way to leave the soul open for the Defiant, one day.

    However, the official class description page says the following:

    A Paladin excels in using a shield to turn aside incoming assaults and launch powerful counterattacks. This martial skill, and the divine blessings of their patron gods, allows Paladins to extend their protection to nearby allies.
    This states, in no uncertain terms, that Paladins are blessed by their patron gods, which, in my opinion, would make them "holy warriors".

    This simply appears as though the one hand does not know what the other is doing, which happens in development. I imagine the lore writers and such do not always know what the class designers are doing, and vice versa. Still, which is it? Do Paladins derive their powers from the gods, or do they not?

    P.S. Much to the dismay of those who disagreed with me in IRC for a half-hour today, if Paladins do not possess holy powers, I think that the class name should be "Knight", instead. The term "Paladin", in the land of MMORPGs, is implied to mean "holy warrior", but the term "Knight" is free from such encumbrances and still accurately describes a defender of the weak. However, as IRC demonstrated, most people disagree with me.

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    Shield of Telara Zinn's Avatar
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    I am not a lore guy, in fact I know nothing about the lore and I am not even sure I feel comfortable or qualified to be posting in the lore section. But on its face it certainly does appear to be a contradiction. At least something worth a clarification.

    But the reason I posted was not because of the lore but more so to say congratulations on the good detective work and good post. Nice to see people paying attention and on top of these things,
    Last edited by Zinn; 08-02-2010 at 08:06 PM.

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    Champion of Telara g0kuenuan's Avatar
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    one thing is clear, they are the MAIN TANKS. what kind of powers they harness and use will be revealed at gamescom probably when they actually show the paladin mechanics.
    http://forums.riftgame.com/image.php?type=sigpic&userid=1282&dateline=1279040  725

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    Shield of Telara Osho's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sornin View Post
    In today's podcast, Joshua Kurtz mentioned that Paladins are not holy warriors, but simply protectors of the weak, and that their power is not from the Vigil. This is fair enough, since this seems like a way to leave the soul open for the Defiant, one day.

    However, the official class description page says the following:



    This states, in no uncertain terms, that Paladins are blessed by their patron gods, which, in my opinion, would make them "holy warriors".

    This simply appears as though the one hand does not know what the other is doing, which happens in development. I imagine the lore writers and such do not always know what the class designers are doing, and vice versa. Still, which is it? Do Paladins derive their powers from the gods, or do they not?

    P.S. Much to the dismay of those who disagreed with me in IRC for a half-hour today, if Paladins do not possess holy powers, I think that the class name should be "Knight", instead. The term "Paladin", in the land of MMORPGs, is implied to mean "holy warrior", but the term "Knight" is free from such encumbrances and still accurately describes a defender of the weak. However, as IRC demonstrated, most people disagree with me.
    The idea with the "Knight" is interesting for an additional class or a comboclass

    But I think what the Paladin description says and what Jushua did explained in the podcast is fine.

    The paladin are protectors and they use their martial skill and their holy powers to defend their allies and those who can't defend themselves. Right now there are a guardian starting souls but we haven't yet determine if they will be available to the Defiants at any point later in the game.
    Paladins aren't specifically tight to the Vigil or to any specific deity. There are champions for the people who can't stand up for themselves. The people who can't fight for themselves. So they may follow specific god or specific ideology. They may fight for the Vigil , but at the end of the day the similarity that draws them together is the willingness to put their life on the line for other people.
    Source: Podcast 6 (4:10-5:30)

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    Shield of Telara Tinker's Avatar
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    Going to have to repeat Nevarre here: A knight is one thing, a paladin something totally different in my opinion. I feel the definition is a bit wishy-washy to be honest - leaving it too open in case someone from the Defiant wants to play the class later on, which honestly makes little sense to me. But then I feel the whole keeping classes open for interlap among two factions who are so divergent is a strange move in the first place - making all the lore being written completely moot if it can be ignored to the point my Vigil character will find themselves grouping with a Reaver on Guardian-side at any point. It sounds too much like deciding to "shake up" the classes of WoW and give Alliance Shamans and the Forsaken the ability to hunt because a few people started complaining about restrictions.

    A knight? Yes, certainly. A paladin without the hand of holy? No, I can't see that either.
    Last edited by Tinker; 08-03-2010 at 05:02 AM.

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    Defiant Maven missdoomcookie's Avatar
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    As Osho pointed out, Josh's point was that the Paladin doesn't necessarily get their power from the Vigil, not that they have no divine patrons at all. The Vigil are not the only powerful beings from whom a Telaran might draw power. As there are various religions and various interpretations of one's relationship with the divine in the real world, you will also find that within Telarans.
    Last edited by missdoomcookie; 08-03-2010 at 10:50 AM.
    Lindsay Morgan Lockhart
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    Official Rift Founding Fan Site Operator Sornin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by missdoomcookie View Post
    As Osho pointed out, Josh's point was that the Paladin doesn't necessarily get their power from the Vigil, not that they have no divine patrons at all. The Vigil are not the only powerful beings from whom a Telaran might draw power. As there are various religions and various interpretations of one's relationship with the divine in the real world, you will also find that within Telarans.
    Thanks for the response! One thing is still lacking a bit of clarity, at least for me. I understand a Paladin not necessarily drawing power from the Vigil, but if not the Vigil, is it always another god or entity?

    In other words, are there Paladins with no affinity for the gods? The lore text I initially quoted seems to imply every Paladin has some sort of patron god, though the podcast interview implied otherwise.

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    Official Rift Fan Site Operator Ciovala's Avatar
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    So where do the Defiants get their powers? I know they 'use Sourcestone', so I guess that' s the easy way out to just give them anything that the Guardians have? But it would still be nice if everything wasn't the same between the two factions in this respect - why can't there be a more technological distinction on the Defiant side versus the typical deity-driven stuff on the Guardians? As it is, they seem the same except for the background lore, unless I'm missing something.

    Edit: bah didn't hit refresh before replying! Also my apologies for this sounding bi***y, it's one of those days - since I can't even decide which faction I'll be yet, my last sentence is a bit suspect.
    Last edited by Ciovala; 08-03-2010 at 11:16 AM.

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    Defiant Maven missdoomcookie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ciovala View Post
    So where do the Defiants get their powers? I know they 'use Sourcestone', so I guess that' s the easy way out to just give them anything that the Guardians have? But it would still be nice if everything wasn't the same between the two factions in this respect - why can't there be a more technological distinction on the Defiant side versus the typical deity-driven stuff on the Guardians? As it is, they seem the same except for the background lore, unless I'm missing something.

    Edit: bah didn't hit refresh before replying! Also my apologies for this sounding bi***y, it's one of those days.
    It is important to note that the primary source of power for any Ascended are the souls of ancient days that they take on. You are going to see soul heroes who found many different ways to become powerful.

    Among the original soul heroes who were from the Defiant races, you are going to find people who made their own power, or made a pact with a god or spirit that demanded they be on equal footing. Defiants refuse to subjugate themselves, but that doesn't mean they don't occasionally cut deals. Among the original soul heroes who were from the Guardian races, you are going to often find people who were gifted their power, who humbled themselves to a greater being for strength. I obviously can't talk about the many unannounced souls yet, but there are souls there who have all variety of skills and techniques for power.

    The distinction between the Mage and the Cleric calling is that a Mage wields power through study and careful construction and that Clerics wield power through an intermediary god, spirit, or ancestor; and that remains true for both Guardians and Defiants. The Defiants don't not have Clerics. They simply are not willing to worship the Vigil because they refuse to accept what they see as a yolk. They do not wish to subjugate themselves, and they will not accept that the Vigil is all powerful/unerring, and so believe a backup plan is in order [in this case, magitech]. Defiant forms of spirituality focus on creating pacts with spirits and demigods, or Ancestor worship. As a culture, the Eth have been more or less atheistic, but the Bahmi are Ancestor worshipers, and, well, I can't speak about the third race yet, but they are the most spiritual of the Defiant races, and you will learn their own take on spirituality when they are announced.
    Lindsay Morgan Lockhart
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    Shield of Telara Tinker's Avatar
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    Cheers for the clarification, but perhaps it's just my complete lack of comprehension at the moment. Why bother with two factions at all? If this sort of lots of exceptions to every rule seems to run as a main theme between both factions, then surely having two factions with such core divergent ideas makes the whole point of factions rather moot? Wouldn't it merely have made more sense to have racial tensions for other reasons than to create two different factions which seem on the surface just to be a bit of a veneer that most people don't bother to take over-seriously?

    Granted, I'm grasping at straws here as the Guardian lore is so scant, but it does seem a rather odd way of doing things, especially considering the end result is pretty much that everyone can be whatever they want, provided they can find the souls ingame. I'm sorry if this comes out rather terse - it's getting late and my ability to put thought to text is getting considerably weaker so last post from me.
    Last edited by Tinker; 08-03-2010 at 11:42 AM.

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    Ascendant Kula's Avatar
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    Ok, now I'm confused. I thought, apparently incorrectly, that the Guardians derived their powers from the Gods who chose them and that the Defiant rejected the Gods and replaced them with techno-magic. If the Defiant also gain power from Gods and demigods, what is the balancing mechanism that allows the Guardians to reject technomagic? Is it something inherent in the original Chosen Ascended Soul as opposed to the random machine-grabbed soul of the Defiant?

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    Defiant Maven missdoomcookie's Avatar
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    Perhaps it's an important point to clarify that every Guardian is a returned, chosen hero of the Vigil. Without the Vigil, no Guardian would have any kind of power, because their spirits would still be in the beyond and they would not be on Telara. Guardians owe their Ascension, and their ability to adopt the souls powers of the fallen, to the Vigil. The Vigil does not return the Defiant races because the Defiant races do not worship the Vigil and have angered the Vigil by defying them in various regards throughout history, most chiefly with magitech but in other ways as well.

    So, on the other hand, no Defiant would be Ascended without technology. All Defiant Ascended are returned to life by the power of the Resurrection Forges. The fundamental ability of a Defiant to fight, and to defy death, remains because of technology. The specific powers they wield come from the mastery of the souls they have attuned, but their fundamental nature is one of technomagic reconstruction.
    Last edited by missdoomcookie; 08-03-2010 at 12:02 PM.
    Lindsay Morgan Lockhart
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    Ascendant Kula's Avatar
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    Thank you Missdoomcookie.

    Maybe our confusion is based on a mistaken assumption that technomagic will be a tool of the Defiant (guns, perhaps grenades, etc)?

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    Defiant Maven missdoomcookie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kula View Post
    Thank you Missdoomcookie.

    Maybe our confusion is based on a mistaken assumption that technomagic will be a tool of the Defiant (guns, perhaps grenades, etc).
    And nothing we have said here says that they will not. There are plenty of things we are not talking about yet. Be patient.
    Lindsay Morgan Lockhart
    Lore Lead - Defiants
    Trion Worlds, Inc
    "I learned at a very young age that the world is full of people who are terrified by knowledge and the power it bestows to the individual. Freedom is to be seized by those with the courage to think for themselves." - Asha Catari

    http://www.twitter.com/missdoomcookie

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    Ascendant Kula's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by missdoomcookie View Post
    And nothing we have said here says that they will not. There are plenty of things we are not talking about yet. Be patient.
    I'm trying. Really, really, I am.

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