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Thread: A Couple Questions for Morgan and Nick on Overall Lore

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    Champion Massabik's Avatar
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    Default A Couple Questions for Morgan and Nick on Overall Lore

    These questions are for Morgan and Nick. I would appreciate it if we let them respond and not have this turn into the pseudo-flame wars that other posts have devolved into.

    With the overall storyline in the Lore, the seeds are present to provide a truly wonderful story in both an antagonistic and cooperative way. How was the decision made to follow a more antagonistic story, with the Guardians and Defiants engaging in open warfare, instead of in a more cooperative way? What is the reasoning (from a Dev standpoint) to limit the player to being able to interact with only half a servers' population? Has any thought been given to a server with a ruleset which would allow the interaction between the two? From the limited amount of information currently available to the fans, I believe the Lore would stand up to the interaction between the two factions without trouble. As one forum poster put it, if the two factions keep fighting each other while the world is being invaded from so many sides, why would we want to save them?

    These are honest questions and in no way meant to be rude/aggressive. I'm sure a lot of people are interested in answers and the thought processes from the Dev side of things.

    Thanks in advance.

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    Plane Touched kartys's Avatar
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    From a strictly story sense, having all the people of Telara cooperate and fight the rifts together would be very one dimensional, which is not only dull but also unrealistic. Games now a days are constantly trying to provided players with a deep immersive experience, they also strive to have replay value. Whether or not they achieve this is largely due to the lore they use. Having different factions give players different experiences in the same game world.

    A reasonable rebuttal would be that players could roll different races and classes. This would provide a different gameplay feeling but eventually would become stall since you are witnessing the same events.

    As for a server ruleset...there is already a pretty long thread that is still on the first page of the general discussion. Here is the link

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    Champion Massabik's Avatar
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    I know about the other thread, and that's exactly the form I didn't want this to take. This was originally a private message, and I was directed to post it here. This is solely to get the Lore Devs view on the questions.

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    Plane Touched kartys's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Massabik View Post
    I know about the other thread, and that's exactly the form I didn't want this to take. This was originally a private message, and I was directed to post it here. This is solely to get the Lore Devs view on the questions.
    I understand but you are going to be very hard pressed to get a quick answer from them, but after speaking with them today I am quite sure that their answers will very closely resemble my own.

    In a rich world very rarely are you going to find things as black and white as you are asking, and honestly I think very few people are going to want that. Even when people agree it is typically with varying ideas of what they are agreeing with. Not only does have a second faction create additional gameplay in terms of pvp, but it also creates a sense of competition and realism. Everyone has their own agendas and their own ways of doing things. Developing these different aspects in a games lore really gives it a living world sense.

    As for saying the lore would stand up to the factions getting along, I very much disagree. With two vastly different view points there is no way there couldn't be conflict.
    Last edited by kartys; 07-02-2010 at 08:48 PM.

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    Champion Massabik's Avatar
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    I think you are misunderstanding what I'm getting at. I'm more interested with the thoughts behind the decisions they are making. To get more of an idea where they are coming from.

    I'm also not talking about the factions 'getting along', but I believe a case could be made for there to be relations between the two similar to say what happened between the US and Russia at the end of WWII. I'm in no way asking for black and white either, maybe I didn't word things clearly. Again, I'm asking more about their thoughts behind their decisions.

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    Ascendant Europe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Massabik View Post
    I think you are misunderstanding what I'm getting at. I'm more interested with the thoughts behind the decisions they are making. To get more of an idea where they are coming from.

    I'm also not talking about the factions 'getting along', but I believe a case could be made for there to be relations between the two similar to say what happened between the US and Russia at the end of WWII. I'm in no way asking for black and white either, maybe I didn't word things clearly. Again, I'm asking more about their thoughts behind their decisions.
    The cold war isn't a great comparison because the defiants and guardians regularly do fight and kill each other in the open. I think there's a very real perception that they need to get rid of the blood storm AND the other side for Telara's sake. It's full on war, they're just somewhat preoccupied.
    <a href=http://www.trinityguild.org target=_blank>http://www.trinityguild.org/images/signatures/rift/sig_final.png</a>
    I mean, I guess it would just be a guy who you know, grabs bananas and runs. Or, um, a banana that grabs things. I donít know.
    Why would a banana grab another banana? I mean, those are the kind of questions I donít want to answer.

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    Prophet of Telara
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    My feeling is they need to be at open war because they are competing for source stone. The Defiant want as much as possible to power their machines and the Guardians want it to keep in touch with the Gods. Whilst it is true to say they may be preoccupied with waging war against the BloodStorm, they are fighting a war with the opposing faction.

    We haven't heard the full story but both Nick and Morgan hinted at extra tensions that have sprung upo between the races, so there's likely to be more to fight over than sourcestone. The Guardians consider the Defiants to be heretics and are waging a religious war to rid Telara of this scourge. The Defiants will merely stand up for their rights and fight back the pious influence of the religious crazy men.

    And having these two factions fighting each other makes the story more interesting. It reminds me of EQ where some races had to avoid each other's starting cities. Most games since have avoided such mechanics. Vanguard pretty much avoided it entirely and EQ2 had it in place but it was never really made a nusiance to gameplay. You could group with whomever you wanted and that made no sense. You're brought up with a deep seated hatred for all things Qeynosian then you go to Everfrost and cooperate with them to get what you want. Why go to all the trouble of trying to vary the world with two factions and then ignore them completely?

    The only other games that have ever had this faction-based background work successfully, and remain an inhibiting part of the game, are games such as W0W and Warhammer Online. They are both essentially PvP games, although Warhammer took it further than WoW. Strangely enough WoW has become the most successful MMO in history.

    I can understand why people will look for reasons to make this game suit PvE, but the truth is that two battling factions makes for a very entertaining world because it adds whole layers to the gameplay. It makes for a more realistic world to be able to attack and kill, to hassle and inconvenience your enemies.

    Maybe that plays into the hands of PvP too much, and I know you probably don't want me to go down that route, but PvP is exciting and, from a roleplayers point of view, I think it is necessary to enhance said roleplaying. We can't really escape the PvP versus PvE question, nor do I think people who enjoy PvE will be seriously complicated by the lore choices that have been made. Why detract from a great storyline to keep everyone happy and playing together? Why not let the playerbase find their niche within it?
    We Were The Defiant

    Then Rift went Trivial and Dull

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    Shield of Telara Tinker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by anagain View Post
    The Guardians consider the Defiants to be heretics and are waging a religious war to rid Telara of this scourge. The Defiants will merely stand up for their rights and fight back the pious influence of the religious crazy men.
    Actually this quote above makes a great point - I have a feeling what's powering the Defiant machines is anything but "harmless energy"; it seems they perceive The Ends Justifies the Means, no matter who they have to stomp on to do so. After all, let's look at the basis of actually taking SOULS to "meld" together to become a greater warrior - everything about the whole scenario behind these Ascended sounds like a bunch of soul-sucking psychic vampires walking the earth, fighting amongst themselves while those mere mortals are at the mercy of two factions killing each other and anyone in their paths. How incredibly twisted - what a great explanation for something which is just a simple skill-tree and doesn't NEED this sort of lore behind it; but they've done so, hence I'm completely cackling with writer-glee. The great thing about the lore is that people can already take such sympathetic (if not entirely accurate) viewpoints with the factions, which speaks to the skill of the lorewriters in my opinion. And that, to my mind as a writer, is why they're writing what they're writing - for the simple reason that it tells a jolly good story that will keep people's interest. However, just like every other writer on the planet, what people DO with the lore they've written, how it's interpreted and what everyone THINKS the writer actually meant tends to be very widely off the mark, and in the end there's really no point it trying to argue the point. Merely let it evolve, especially when dealing with the MMO community which, on the whole, always feels they know so much more about gaming than the people who actually write the games. Sometimes when writing you just have to write your bit and then get the frell out the way.

    It was brought up "why can't players side with some of the NPC cults?" and the answers were telling: "what, and end the game?" That's the point, after all - without constant conflict, the game is over. If any one side wins, then the game is over; and since the NPC cult groups want to take over and destroy the world, if people were able to join (and knowing how people feel about underdogs or the "cool, evil people" the numbers would be huge) then the game would be over. Hence the two factions with the above reactions coming into play; conflict which will play out for ages, without ever having a ending.

    On the whole, I am very impressed with what's being written so far, and I can see why it's been done the way it has. They have a very unique challenge in that they have to create some sort of conflict which will allow a game with millions of players to somehow never get bored with the story, and still allow them to be able to write for expansions, close one chapter only to open three more, and give the other factions like PvP and rp something to do. Keep everyone arguing about which faction is "good" which one is "evil", who is more destined to rule, pointing at various points of lore as if it was holy writ, and you have very loyal fans who will be playing the game for a long time. Not only that, but they will take the implied conflict in the game and turn it into atmospheric fact. We already have what started out as tongue-in-cheek Defiant vs. Guardian threads on the forums which have turned into full blown dogma - it's completely fascinating but a great demonstration of the power of good writing.

    IWriting for MMOs; gah, what a headache, it's very complicated, not the least of which due to having thousands of critics, and I take my hats off to the effort so far.
    Last edited by Tinker; 07-03-2010 at 04:13 AM.

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    Plane Walker Maxxy's Avatar
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    In the chat room your started to talk about Prince Hylas, then nothing more was said about him.
    Could you clear up what you were referring too, when you brought up his name? Does he have something to do with the House Aelfwar,or Greenscale?

    "Do not think of knocking out another person's brains because he differs in opinion from you. It would be as rational to knock yourself on the head because you differ from yourself ten years ago."
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    Plane Touched kartys's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maxxy View Post
    In the chat room your started to talk about Prince Hylas, then nothing more was said about him.
    Could you clear up what you were referring too, when you brought up his name? Does he have something to do with the House Aelfwar,or Greenscale?
    Prince Hylas is the leader of House Aelfwar.

    Quote Originally Posted by %captaincursor
    First, since this has come up. House Aelfwar.
    They are the cult of life.
    They are a breakaway faction of the high elves
    Under one of the main characters in our game, Prince Hylas.
    From my understanding of the post is that Prince Hylas and House Aelfwar, are only connected to Greenscale in the sense that they worship he. Greenscale doesn't care for House Aelfwar because if he wins he is going to hunt and eat them anyways

    Quote Originally Posted by %captaincursor
    it's kinda wrong to say he's the "leader" of it because he's more of a beast, and if victorious would hunt the creatures of the world, devouring all that he came accross

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    Plane Walker Maxxy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kartys View Post
    Prince Hylas is the leader of House Aelfwar.



    From my understanding of the post is that Prince Hylas and House Aelfwar, are only connected to Greenscale in the sense that they worship he. Greenscale doesn't care for House Aelfwar because if he wins he is going to hunt and eat them anyways
    Thank you Karty,
    I know he was once the leader of the High Elves, the one who broke the ancient covenant with the gods. I missed where they said he was now the leader of House Aelfwar.Like you said, they did mention it was a break away faction of the High Elves, so that makes sense to me now.

    "Do not think of knocking out another person's brains because he differs in opinion from you. It would be as rational to knock yourself on the head because you differ from yourself ten years ago."
    - Horace Mann (1796 - 1859)

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    Plane Touched kartys's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maxxy View Post
    Thank you Karty,
    I know he was once the leader of the High Elves, the one who broke the ancient covenant with the gods. I missed where they said he was now the leader of House Aelfwar.Like you said, they did mention it was a break away faction of the High Elves, so that makes sense to me now.
    I think you are miss reading the information we have. Prince Hylas isn't the elf leader (least with the information we have). He broke the covenant for himself and those who followed him by starting House Aelfwar. The high elf race as a whole (the race the players are apart of) are still very much with the Gods of the vigil.

    Edit: I do correct myself that Prince Hylas was a leader of the high elves...was forgetting about what was stated in the guardian history page.
    Last edited by kartys; 07-03-2010 at 11:49 AM.

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    Prophet of Telara Eldran's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Massabik View Post
    How was the decision made to follow a more antagonistic story, with the Guardians and Defiants engaging in open warfare, instead of in a more cooperative way? What is the reasoning (from a Dev standpoint) to limit the player to being able to interact with only half a servers' population? Has any thought been given to a server with a ruleset which would allow the interaction between the two?
    I don't see this yet in the available info.

    Everywhere it comes up they talk of the factions being at war, but there also seem to be differences within each faction. So I'm expecting to see some elements of both factions co-operate with each other and also potentially for there to be content which encourages players from both factions to work together.
    Eldran, Destroyer of Worlds! (TM pending)

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    Defiant Maven missdoomcookie's Avatar
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    I feel like you guys have pretty well addressed this, but just to reaffirm some of the ideas present in this thread...

    Both sides want very much to save the world. But the debate over the use of sourcestone to do so goes very deep. The Vigil has said not to use the sourcestone and so Guardians, who draw their power from the gods, cannot be at peace with the use of it. But without the sourcestone-driven tech, the Defiants are powerless and can only watch as the world is destroyed around them, and with the Vigil's Ward and thus methodology failing the world so profoundly, the Defiants believe it is necessary for them to join in the fight.

    In the end, everyone does have the same goal, so will we see them working toward very similar goals from time to time and do not feel the need to kill each other while doing so? Yes.

    But if a Guardian sees a Defiant using tech, will he not feel so profound a drive to stop her from doing so that blood shed could result from it? Not anytime soon. So can they be friends? Not likely.

    I really think we've captured the moment of division well in the comic. So look for it.
    Lindsay Morgan Lockhart
    Lore Lead - Defiants
    Trion Worlds, Inc
    "I learned at a very young age that the world is full of people who are terrified by knowledge and the power it bestows to the individual. Freedom is to be seized by those with the courage to think for themselves." - Asha Catari

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    Champion Massabik's Avatar
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    Thanks very much for your response.

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