39LikesAs said earlier if you are doing 10man raids you don't need 20man raid gear. I see no reason for implementing something like this.Originally Posted by Vencenzo
As said earlier if you are doing 10man raids you don't need 20man raid gear. I see no reason for implementing something like this.
I have never known any player in any of these games who doesn't want the best gear. I really dunno where 'need' comes into it.
I guess, personally, I do understand the concept because I am always happy just getting some decent level fifty gear so I can wreck the content that I spend my time on. But I can totally see how a lot of players reach the cap, start gearing up, realize they are never going to see the 'final' content, and give up.
But obviously if you just hand the gear out to them you piss off the hardcore players. I really dunno what the solution is but maybe we could do a better job of tricking the casual players into thinking they matter.
Last edited by kirsch; 12-16-2011 at 11:56 AM.
The solution is for people to take their own destiny into their own hands. If they want the gear, they go get it. They find 19 other people, train up, gear up, and do it.
People are envious by nature so of course they want the best gear. Still, there's 3 kinds of people in this world: People who earn things, and people who wait for handouts, and people who could care less.
Roleplayer. Laeris / Xylander - Petals of Mariel-Taun - Faeblight
And Another Thing...
If you create 10-man versions of 20-man raids, do you think anyone will continue to do the 20-man versions? For guilds with enough people for 20-man content you'd end up with two groups for 10-man, and that just creates more headaches. ("Group Alpha has better players than Group Beta and is completing the raid while we're still stuck on the third boss!" "But I want to be in Bob's group!" "We have more Rogues in Group Gamma than Group Delta, so the odds of me getting loot sucks!" etc.)
Keeping the same loot but changing the drop rates won't work, either. You can't scale drop rates of all loot lower in a 10-man version; what are you going to do, get to a boss that drops nothing? I can't imagine how you choose which loot drops would be lower and which ones would therefore become HIGHER.
I never played EQ but I was a WoWhead since Open Beta. We were able to get a regular group of FORTY people together to raid Molten Core and the like. Getting twenty people together is a megaton easier than that and completely doable.
that is a great solution for the individual
but the article seems to be about a negative trend
which would indicate people are not effectively doing that for some reason that maybe needs to be addressed
Last edited by kirsch; 12-16-2011 at 12:09 PM.
I fully agree with this.
The problem is realistically your going to find 8 capable people and hope it's
enough to crutch the other 11.
Mechanically a 5 man could be as hard as a 20man
Less dependance on random players, more focus on individual skill.
The gear should be available without mass crutching.
Last edited by Vencenzo; 12-16-2011 at 12:20 PM.
Now, I am a person who is a purely casual raider. I raid 1 night, and very rarely 2 nights a week. I usually do 10-man content but I've done a few 20-mans in my time. I too want the good gear... but my guild is trying to get more into advanced HK grade content so I'm trying to do my part. Still, I support 10-mans as a personal preference. They don't take the logistics and manpower that 20-mans do. To me, I think I spend more time rezzing and corpse walking than I do actual fighting. There's a lot more AFK timeouts, waiting around, organizing, and bickering in 20-mans. 10-mans are more action focused and enjoyable for me.
However, I'm not naive and I know what 20-mans are all about. They have their own place and shouldn't be messed with. The trend in the industry is favoring challenging but accessible content (RotP is an example). It doesn't take 20-man raids to have a hard instance that tests a guild's raid prowess. Ten people seems to be a good size I think. You can make stuff hard and make it viable for a lot more people.
Still, 20-man raids are always going to be the major leagues. You can get some of the best gear in the game out of RotP (BiS rings for all classes for example)... but you aren't going to get Akylios relics out of it.
Like I said. I'm all for 10-mans as my own preference but 20-mans have a unique role in any raid game and messing with those starts issues that roll down hill.
Roleplayer. Laeris / Xylander - Petals of Mariel-Taun - Faeblight
I thought it was those who see only black, those who see only white, and those who see grey.
Anyhow, as one who disagrees with the design path MMO's have taken in reserving the greatest rewards for (instanced) raiding, I disagree even more with the OP.
I am a member of a smallish family guild which can do 10-mans, when we want to do 20-man raids we partner with another guild our size. Simple as that.
Instancing is bad enough at removing players from the world at large, making the groups smaller and smaller for everything just isolates more small groups of players from the community.
Tons of guild are in HK. On Laethys alone we have 9- 10 HK Guardian guilds and about equal number Defiants I would say. On average there seems to be least 7-8 guilds per shards that are doing HK and multiply that by however number of shards there are.
A fair number of guilds are 10/11 HK and more than 20 guilds have defeated Akylios.
Declining population does not mean need for 10 man dumbed down content. Look at EQ2, game is out for quite a few years and population is dwindling. Raiding is quite active and hardcore.
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I don't raid in rift, yet. I may in the future, but I see no need for those that don't do the 20 man raid content to get the 20 man raid gear.
Personally I would like them to use the(if it actually works) instant adventure scaling feature, on all raids. That way, a raid that is very hard for those just meeting the gear requirement is still very hard for those who are fully maxed out in gear.
EQ raids were awesome! So many failuresbut it made us better gamers. "what do you mean we have to PLAN out our actions?!?! We can't just go Whack-a-Mole on the boss?!?"
I think its actually less about the gear and more about the underlined part. People are jealous of those who raid HK, not just for the gear but for the experience of it. They want to kill Akylios too.
Its not something that can be fixed really, people just need to understand that they someday will be able to raid Akylios, just not necessarily when its current.
Trion needs to find a way to ensure that when people do get around to Akylios they can get some kind of worthwhile reward out of it. Once people start to realize they will get their shot eventually some of the jealousy will die down.
As for a solution into tricking the casual people into thinking they matter, get some amazing looking gear to be top end non raid. And find some way to make it unique so it wont be as powerful as raid armor, but it might give the casual something that raid armor cant get them. For instance my Ranger in EQ1 had pants that cast a mana free root spell when you clicked on them. Maybe if the casual player got pants that could give you, say, a moderate sized heal every 10 minutes it could help them solo that elite they couldnt before but wouldnt be more powerful to a raider.
Pretty sure 54 man raids still happen in EQ1
Not everyone is hardcore raiders, but why would you basically "punish" the 1% for the fallacies of the 99%? After all, we are all customers. I disagree with putting the same items into 10mans than 20mans, but I do see a necessity for more 10man raiding. My point for saying is that at no point should content which requires less offer the same rewards as content that requires more. What do I mean by more? I mean more difficulty, more coordination, more members(which is already hard enough to get 20 100% raiders). Most 20man raiding guilds, unless they are incredibly tight, run with 25-30 in their roster to compensate for this reality. In our raid, I would say 10 people are 100% attendance raiders. The rest are anywhere between 70% and less.
I am sure Trion will address this in the future. HK has been out for how many months and only 20 guilds have cleared it lately. I think that is pretty pathetic, and it's not because of lack of effort. I agree the content is good being tougher. And, yes, HK has received massive nerfs in the past months where it makes most of lower HK, and two of the upper HK bosses, a joke with a decent team. This will allow guilds to progress steadily towards Akylios. The problem, like the OP says, isn't in the number of people in the game that aren't willing to raid.
It's a combination of attendance problems because of disillusions in the past and that many guilds who used to be active in raiding have quit because raiders got burnt out and it would have taken them too long to gear new raiders up. I think that is the ultimate evil here, right? Gearing new players, no matter how incredible they might be, to tackle these new challenges and pick up progression where it used to be.
I don't think players are satisfied playing a constant game of catchup to the 1%
The only real solution is for the 99% to form the occupy sanctum movement.
But in all seriousness its a lose-lose situations. If easy stuff and tough stuff provide the same gear, then people become less inclined to do the tough stuff. This makes it even tougher for people who enjoy the mechanics of 20 man raids to do them, because everyone does 10s instead.
WoW is a mess right now with its gear acquisition and raid structure. They tinkered too much and no one is really happy.
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